Did Steven Avery Do It? 5 Theories About Who Really Killed Teresa Halbach

Steven Avery Investigation Discovery

Last month, much hype surrounded the release of Netflix’s “Making A Murderer” docu-series, which examined the case of Steven Avery, a Wisconsin man who spent 18 years in prison for rape before being exonerated by DNA evidence — and then, two years later, found himself back behind bars for an even worse crime: the 2005 death of 25-year-old Teresa Halbach. His teenage nephew, Brendan Dassey, was also convicted for her death in a separate trial.

Teresa Halbach Photo: AP Photo/ Halbach Family via Herald Times Reporter

Teresa Halbach Photo: AP Photo/ Halbach Family via Herald Times Reporter

Avery has maintained his innocence throughout— as has Dassey, after recanting an earlier confession that led to the charges — and the defense posited at trial that Manitowoc County officers had framed Avery for the crime by planting evidence. Ten years in the making, Netflix’s 10-episode series delves into Avery’s long history with the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s Department, providing further context for his framing defense through original interviews with Avery’s family and attorneys, and examines the police investigation and chain of events that led to Avery and Dassey’s convictions.

Avery’s most prominent detractors — like Prosecutor Ken Kranz, and the long list of Wisconsin police officers involved in the investigation — declined to participate in the series and are thus seen mostly through courtroom footage and media interviews. Alternately, Avery’s biggest supporters — including his parents and his two impassioned attorneys, Dean Strang and Jerry Buting — did cooperate with filmmakers, resulting in a documentary series that some claim is skewed in favor of Avery’s innocence.

It’s certainly true that, despite the series’ length, “Making A Murderer” does not cover everything about the Steven Avery case, though the filmmakers insist that they included the State’s most damning evidence of Avery’s guilt in the documentary. Many of these overlooked or downplayed bits of evidence — like Avery’s prior history of violence against women and animals; his alleged “strange” behavior during prior meetings with Halbach; the State’s contention that the shell casing found in Avery’s garage not only had Halbach’s DNA on it, but also matched a rifle that hung over Avery’s bed — warrant another look at the case.

There are many who believe Avery is guilty as charged and convicted. But naturally, “Making A Murderer’s” calling that into question has sparked the Internet’s armchair detectives to theorize about what really happened to Teresa Halbach. Here are the most common theories floating around and the supporting evidence — or lack thereof:

 

Bobby Dassey Photo: AP Photo/Sheboygan Press, Bruce Halmo, Poo

Bobby Dassey Photo: AP Photo/Sheboygan Press, Bruce Halmo, Poo

Theory #1: Scott Tadych (Avery’s brother-in-law) and Bobby Dassey (Avery’s nephew and Brendan Dassey’s brother) killed Halbach (purposefully or accidentally) and framed Avery for the crime … and then sat back and watched as the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s Department separately did the same.

Evidence: The amount of evidence found on the Avery property — including Halbach’s remains and her car – has led many to surmise that if Steven Avery and Bobby Dassey are innocent, the real killer would still likely be someone who had similar access and opportunity, both to Halbach herself and the Avery property. A number of other Avery family members also lived on the property at the time, including Tadych, Janda and all four of the Dassey boys. It was Janda’s car that Halbach came to photograph for Auto Trader magazine, and Tadych more than likely was privy to her visit. Bobby Dassey testified to seeing Halbach taking pictures of his mother’s car, and both men had access to the various locations where evidence was found. Neither was fingerprinted or submitted DNA, and the trailer where they lived was not searched, so there’s no way of knowing if there was evidence linking them to Halbach’s murder, because they were not investigated.

Other Evidence: Bobby is believed to be Tadych’s accomplice in this theory, based on the fact that the pair conveniently alibi each other for the time of the murder. Both claimed to have gone hunting that afternoon/evening, but not together, and said they passed each other on the highway during the window of time Halbach is believed to have been killed – but there are no other witnesses to offer further corroboration.

Tadych, meanwhile, has a long history of being violent towards women, and showed a strange level of enthusiasm for his brother-in-law’s conviction (he called it “the best thing in the world ever”) despite knowing his son-in-law, Brendan, was facing similar charges. Meanwhile, Bobby Dassey’s testimony at trial had notable inconsistencies and misleading statements, and an unrelated examination the same week as the murder reportedly revealed that Bobby had scratches on his back. Additionally, shortly after Halbach’s death, a coworker of Tadych’s claimed that he was trying to sell a .22 rifle, the same as the gun believed to be the murder weapon, which he said belonged “to one of the Dassey boys.”

SOURCES:

Court Document

Fusion

Reddit

Reddit

Theory #2: Chuck and Earl Avery killed Halbach and framed their brother.

According to TMZ, Steven Avery filed legal documents in 2009 which pointed the finger at his brothers, saying there had been a fight over the family business and that the pair was jealous of the multi-million dollar settlement he was expected to get from his civil case. The defense also had the Avery brothers on their list of possible alternate suspects.

Potential Evidence: Like Tadych and Dassey, both Chuck and Earl lived and worked on the Avery property and had access to all the same locations where evidence was found. Both have disturbing criminal histories, including allegations of rape, child molestation and violence against women.

The day that Halbach’s car was found “hidden” in the Averys’ salvage yard, Earl was working and allowed volunteers to search the lot for Halbach’s car – which they found in less 30 minutes. According to the documents filed by Steve Avery, Charles Avery had allegedly harassed at least three women who visited the junk yard within a month of Halbach’s death.

Sources:

TMZ

Court Documents

Andrew Colburn (left) and James Lenk (right) Photo: AP Photo/Corey Wilson, Pool/ AP Photo/Bruce Halmo, Pool

Andrew Colburn (left) and James Lenk (right) Photo: AP Photo/Corey Wilson, Pool/ AP Photo/Bruce Halmo, Pool

Theory #3: Officers from the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s Department – specifically Sergeants Lenk and Colborn – did not kill Halbach, but planted evidence that implicated Avery. Avery’s defense team suggested that the officers believed Avery was guilty of the crime and only planted evidence to secure a conviction, ignoring other potential suspects. However, Internet theorists are less generous about the officers’ motives, with many suggesting that the police didn’t care about who killed Halbach, but wanted Avery to take the fall because his multi-million dollar civil suit settlement was going to bankrupt the county and humiliate many members in local law enforcement.

Evidence: Avery’s lawyers, Dean Strang and Jerry Buting, pointed to Lenk and Colborn’s continued involvement in the investigation even after the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s Department was taken off the case. In fact, Lenk and Colborn were present for or linked to discovery of a couple key pieces of physical evidence, including the key to Halbach’s RAV-4, which was suddenly found in Avery’s trailer after it had already been searched multiple times to no avail. Not to mention, on the same day that Halbach was reported missing, Colborn called in a license plate number that matched Halbach’s plates. Two days later, her car was found by a couple of volunteer searchers, only the plates had been removed and tossed into another nearby vehicle.

Some supporters of this theory have suggested that Colborn might have been searching the Avery property without a warrant, found the car and knew he couldn’t call it in; others think he found the car and Halbach’s body in an entirely different location, burned her body and then planted her remains and the car on the Avery property, removing the plates and stashing them elsewhere to increase the chances of them being found.

If they did indeed have access to the RAV-4 before it was officially discovered, Lenk and Colborn could have planted additional evidence, theorists say, including (as the defense posited at trial) Avery’s blood, a vial of which was stored at the city clerk’s office. Lenk was one of the few people who knew about the blood vial and would have had access to it, and both the box the vial was stored in and the vial itself appeared to have been tampered with. (Ultimately, the State had the FBI created a test which their expert witness claimed proved the blood in Halbach’s car couldn’t have come from the vial, but the defense’s witness disagreed that such a conclusive result could be reached.)

Sources:

Reddit

Theory #4: Ryan Hillegas, Teresa’s ex-boyfriend, killed her.

Motive: Usually when a person, especially a woman, is murdered, investigators put boyfriends and ex-boyfriends at the top of their list of potential suspects, as intimate partner violence is exceedingly common. Yet Hillegas was never treated as a suspect by investigators.

Evidence: Uncorroborated allegations that Hillegas has a history of stalking have circulated on the internet, as have photos taken the week of Halbach’s disappearance which reportedly show Hillegas had deep scratches on his hands.  But his cold reaction and strange behavior after Halbach’s disappearance are at the center of this theory.

Hillegas testified that after Halbach went missing, he hacked into her voicemail and successfully guessed her password so he could listen to her messages, which strikes some as suspicious and unlikely. A cell phone expert testified that though Halbach’s voicemail filled up in the days after her death, some messages had been deleted – messages that believers of this theory say probably were from Hillegas, and he deleted them because they made him look guilty. Of course, if Hillegas did kill Halbach then he still would have had to have at least planted the car and her remains back on the Avery property, though most of those who suspect Hillegas is guilty still think the police planted additional evidence, like Halbach’s car key and Avery’s blood.

SOURCES:

Reddit

Reddit

Steven Avery Investigation Discovery

Steven Avery, credit: AP/Morry Gash

Theory #5: Steven Avery did it, with or without the help of Brendan Dassey.

Evidence: There are those who believe that Steven Avery is responsible for the murder of Teresa Halbach. As we mentioned previously, there was evidence that was not presented in the “Making A Murderer” series. Armchair detective Dustin Rowles lays out the alleged omitted evidence here. Despite the alleged omitted evidence, the prevailing feeling online is that due to cognitive disabilities and coerced confessions, Dassey is an innocent victim.

What theory do you subscribe to? Share your thoughts in the comments.

Want to learn more about the Steven Avery case? Investigation Discovery is partnering with NBC News’ Keith Morrison to re-examine the evidence. FRONT PAGE:THE STEVEN AVERY STORY, airing in January, will provide insight into unanswered questions from the Netflix series MAKING A MURDERER.

Main Image: AP/Morry Gash

  • Both Bobby Dassey and Ryan Hillegas come off as shady and liars on the stand. Ex-bf hacking voice messages, showing no emotion, should be red flags everywhere. Teresa’s co-worker said she had been receiving harassing calls.

    There is so much here, that beyond a reasonable doubt that Steven Avery murdered and burned Teresa, seem to be impossible to prove but he will most likely die in prison.

    • dan wipper

      However, they did not have the blood to plant nor as strong a motive.

      • CrisBNice

        The brother Michael seems like he knew or did something. Hillegas likely had motive as an ex. They both accessed her vm, not coincidentally msgs were missing after they did. They didn’t need to plant anything;
        The county was more than accommodating once they saw the opportunity to railroad Avery.

        • aoifemacmahon

          Why did the defense not obtain the voicemail’s or at least the numbers the voicemail’s came from? Especially the ones that were deleted. This may point to the real killer! I worked for a fortune 500 cell company and I know there are ways for the courts to get access to information like this in the case of a murder etc.

          I always thought the ex boyfriend and the brother of Teresa acted weird. Also why did Teresa’s parents never seem to talk to the cameras? It was always the brother? He talked about loving the police so much it seemed wierd. I would at least have some doubt in the cops after this and want to know who the real killer is if my sister was killed. I would question everyone, esp those closest to her. Anyone accessing her voicemail and possibly deleting messages should of at the VERY LEAST been asked for an alibi in my opinion.

      • Kathy Hickok

        They didn’t need to plant his blood, they just needed to plant blood and say it was his.

      • Kaitain

        It’s conceivable that:
        1. Mr X (e.g. Hillegas) kills Hambach and knows that Avery is a good person upon whom to pin the blame, either from having access to her phone, from following her or from sheer luck hearing on the news that Avery is the last person to have seen her alive
        2. The cops independently seize upon the opportunity to frame Avery

        This does rely on some degree of coincidence and/or people thinking quickly on their feet without planning together, but it’s possible.

        • JB

          Right, breaking into Teresa’s phone records and deleting messages doesn’t provide all the evidence that would be needed to convict someone like Ryan Hilegas but that is the case for everyone including Steven Avery, yet he is the only one in prison when there is reasonable doubt pertaining to every shred of evidence against him. I am unsure of who killed Teresa but I am sure the investigation and trial were unjust.

        • Jfrn

          She wasn’t reported missing until the 3rd of November, and could give them plenty of time to plan. Given the shotty work that was done, I’d say they had plenty of time to pull this off.

        • concerned citizen

          The ex sure knew where the car was….

      • Sanchioso

        The police had and did…Steve Avery had a strong motive? How do you know Dassey and exbf didnt have strong motives….they were never investigated.

        • Linda Lynn

          I think he will get a new trial. Him and the nephew. There were errors everywhere. Even the judge screwed up.

          • Sanchioso

            Only way now is if new evidence or testing is introduced….I believe he’s exhausted all his motions and appeals.

  • drowsy1234

    This alone is REASONABLE DOUBT…… how they came up with guilty dumbfounds me…..where is the justice….? If there is reasonable doubt acquit…….

    • Timmy Wilburn

      Speculation without proof is not reasonable doubt. People sitting in that courtroom saw the evidence and based their guilty verdict on things none of us were able to see . way too many bleeding hearts in America today and that is why we have a violence problem in all states.

      • Meghan

        Is there a way to see what wasn’t showed in documentary?

        • Jfrn

          Yes. Look up court documents on SA’s case. Lots of articles on the Internet will also point you to this as well. However, from what I’ve read, some of the things the PA listed as not shown, either, A. were not admissible in court and irrelevant to this case, or B. Can all go either direction. To me, were not pertinent enough to sway a vote in either direction. Ken Krantz seems to be grasping at straws to make it seem that the docuseries was extremely biased.
          Hope this helps!

          • JB

            I agree, the stuff that was left out of the documentary is just as arguable as everything else. And speaking of the jury, I heard that two juror’s were directly related to Manitowoc County employees. WTF? Is this info true? If so, how can that even happen? It was also announced 5 days ago that a juror has stepped forward saying they thought Steven Avery was framed by the police and made their guilty vote under duress. It’s also not the only time a juror came forward to talk about what went on in there. Richard Mahler, who was excused from jury duties after a family emergency, spoke of the same kind of thing. So the Jury sounds as convoluted as everything else related this case. And can some one please tell me what the actual eff is up with having the same judges???

          • Jfrn

            All true! In the Judge’s statement on Mahler, he stated that Mahler had a death in the family, which was not true.
            8 men and 8 women sat on the jury and twelve were picked to deliberate. Mahler was dismissed due to reasons that were untrue. 7 people walked in with not guilty verdicts. Jurors bartered on different counts, which then led to a guilty verdict. One juror was a father to a man of the MCSD. One was a husband to a clerks office employee.
            The two detectives from the MCSD working on the case is a huge conflict of interest, and regardless of anyone’s belief of did they or didn’t the plant evidence, goes completely against the law of a fair and just trial, by our own governments laws.
            Another conflict of interest, that, again, is a total disregard of the law, is the ex and the brother of TH were allowed on the Avery property to search while it was under the control of crime scene investigators. This does not happen. Period! Nobody from the public are allowed on the scene of a crime that has been taken over by the detectives. This allows for crime scene disruption and tampering. None of these things would ever be allowed in a trial or after a crime has been committed. Anyone who doesn’t see the obvious injustices in these alone should never be allowed to sit on a jury of their peers. That right should be completely stripped from them.

          • JB

            So is there anyone at this point being held responsible for misconduct with the investigation and with the trial?

          • Jfrn

            Not that I know of. I do believe it is all part of the appeals, but, I’m sure his new lawyer will bring this up in the future. I think everyone involved should’ve prosecuted. Just my two cents.

          • JB

            It’s going to be interesting to see how this all unfolds.

          • Jfrn

            I completely agree! I’m hoping justice is served for all parties involved.

          • Laurie Anne

            I think you meant to say they all should have *been* prosecuted. Totally agree!

          • Jfrn

            Yes, I was probably furious when I wrote it. Thanks for the correction!

          • JB

            Wow, did the judge actually say the excused juror’s emergency resulted in death? How could he say that if she didn’t die? Where did he get his info from? Seriously the more I learn, the worse it is for the entire justice system and process going on in Wisconsin.

          • Jfrn

            I saw the statement which was part of the court documents that actually said there was a death in the family, by the Judge, himself. The whole case stinks of injustice and a bunch of criminals working in the government of this state.

          • Meghan

            Thank you!

      • chad

        You are ABSOLUTELY right. So much was not shown. The judge was very direct in saying Avery “was the the most dangerous person to ever step in his court”. They heard all the evidence. ALL the evidence. There is much more that supports the State’s case. The right man is in jail.

        • Janet Corbett

          You are right in saying the right man is in jail….To keep the corrupt , bent law enforcers from getting their knuckles wrapped. It’s disgusting!

        • Scott Henry

          It’s not about which side has more or better evidence, it’s about the state’s evidence pointing to guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I think a majority of people in general (not tied to Manitowoc in some way) can agree there was plenty of evidence presented to cast doubt.
          And for the judge to say Avery was the most dangerous person seemed like a weak attempt to justify the proceedings.

          • chad

            But, just as you say there wasnt evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, i contest the documentary didnt show/present enough of the court proceedings/evidence to confirm that. It goes both ways. I think this was made to spark controversy and debate. And that can be a good thing.

          • Scott Henry

            Definitely a good case to debate. There was a lot of evidence that was glossed over that certainly incriminates Avery, and it’s too bad it wasn’t presented in the documentary. Even still, I don’t feel the required standard of proof for a guilty conviction was met. There are too many holes in the stste’s case. It’s definitely possible that he is guilty, and I don’t think anyone who thinks that is for sure wrong, but it’s also very possible that an innocent (albeit a little crazy) man is in jail.

          • chad

            I cant disagree with that. I am one that believes he is guilty (on gut and experience). But i am also one that sees corruption. Corruption by a few. And, as usual, a few bad apples make the whole bunch come off as stinky.

      • Vixiha

        The jury only saw what was allowed into evidence by the judge. Based on Wisconsin’s Third Party law, the defense was allowed to provide a list of other possible suspects, within a certain period of time, which they did, but the judge refused to allow the list into evidence. This meant that the defense was not allowed to suggest that evidence pointed to anyone on their list. They were only allowed to question those, on their list, if they were brought in as witnesses for the prosecution, and even then, they were only allowed to point out that they had never been investigated as a suspect.

        • JB

          Vixiha, do you know why the judge didn’t allow the list of suspects into the list of evidence? I also don’t understand why the same 2 judges were used in everything regarding Steven Avery and his nephew Brendon Dassy? Can anyone tell me if the same judge is even allowed? And if so, how is this fair?

      • Kaitain

        The USA has a violence problem because it has a macho culture, too much stupidity, and too many guns.

      • Sanchioso

        Naaahh….I believe violent people are the reason for the violence problem.

  • Michael C. Allevato

    The biggest scumbag was that Len guy. What a dishonest punk. They were all in on it.

    • Diane

      I agree. Shame on him for being a defense attorney! He is not any kind of advocate!

    • Laurie Anne

      I believe I heard he is now a sitting judge. I just wanted to bash something lol

  • Reichmuth

    This case is the Biggest show of just how Crooked a Whole Criminal Justice system can be..I watched this doc..I do NOT think Steven Avery or Brendan Dassey is guilty in the least..It’s the (Crooked) Law Enforcement community..It makes me sick to know I live in America and this could be done to anyone! Just think about that for a while?? P.S. I also think they bought some of the Jury members..

    • Jmysray

      I tell you what I wish, that the juror that had to be excuses stayed, he seems to me to be the only that was not accepting of the states evidence, he himself at the end of the documentary says he still is haunted by this case, I am betting he is thinking if only I had stayed on maybe the jury would have been hung and Steven would have at minimum gotten another trial.

    • Meghan

      Imagine if you lived here…if this goes on all over America..I am really scared.

  • David

    I firmly believe the police did it. The forced confessions, where they lead the poor kid down the path, basically telling him what to say. Why did Len Kachinsky get asked to be the Dassey kid’s attorney? Because he would play along. He basically did all he could to get the confession bolstered. The crime scene does not match the story the kid tells when they finally break him and force him to start making crap up.

    They searched his property for eight days during which the Avery’s were not allowed there. I believe this is when the police burned her body and fine-tuned how they would frame this guy.

    The Manitowoc police search Avery’s house after many other searches have already scoured the place, and THEY are the ones who find the key. In the pre-trial hearing a Calumet deputy states, on the witness stand no less, that the key was not there prior to the search by the Manitowoc deputies.

    This whole things stinks and I pray that all the phony cops, sherriffs, prosecutors, and Len Kachinsky go to jail.

    • Cynthia Kontos

      Eh…I still think the ex-boyfriend killed Theresa, the cops came across the scene and thought it would be perfect to move it. I don’t think the cops burned anyone or anything. But the fact that they “excavated” the alleged burn pit right in front of Avery’s house…before they called in the forensic anthropologists who would have noticed signs of bones being moved if they did the excavation themselves…

      I think they stumbled onto the “best scenario” and tried to make it work. But none of it makes any sense what-so-ever.

      • Dillusional

        What is the reason that Steve would have killed this girl?

        • chad

          An unwanted advance…..aggressive advance…..there are several reasons. He had several prior interactions with her, bordering harassment. There was some prior behavior that was questionable and altogether scary. Im guessing the “Avery account” was big for the auto-trader business. Otherwise, i dont know why she would go to his home.

          • JB

            Chad, can you list the several motives you speak of? And can you list the several interactions that are borderline harassment? What is the prior behavior that was questionable and altogether scary that you are talking about?

        • Sanchioso

          I don’t know the reason…but would probably be less than the reason Scott Tadych could’ve had

    • chad

      No way the police would ever murder her. I am a police officer….but i am very open-minded. I AM under the assumption that the case was expedited and solidified with manufactutred evidence. Avery is not a good guy. He is not innocent. IF Avery did not murder her, i believe the strongest suspect is his brother in law. MAYBE his brothers. There are very interesting motives

      • nothingbutthetruth

        If you were truly open minded you would not have made that statement. Any theory is viable, even officers,(and not just this case) committing murder.

        • chad

          Okie dokie.

        • chad

          ANYTHING is possible, ANYWHERE. You dont have to believe everything to have an open-mind. All-inclusiveness has limitations. But your opinion is yours. And it’s valued.

          • nothingbutthetruth

            Thank you and your opinion is valued as well. I have the highest respect for police officers as well as other people that make the choice to serve and protect, (including firemen and the military). I was just pointing out that open mindedness would be unbiased. And your statement was bias. I do agree with you tho ANYTHING could be possible. “No stone left unturned” explore every avenue till its exhausted. Even then would any of us know the whole truth? Would the right person(s) be held accountable for these travesties’? I pray and believe that justice will eventually prevail. But Only time will tell.

      • JB

        It’s very concerning to have you Chad as a Police Officer say “No way the police would ever murder her. I am a police officer… but I am open minded.” As an Officer why would you rule anyone out?

        • aoifemacmahon

          EXACTLY! If there are lots of cops in jail in their own section of prisons for terrible crimes. Humans are capable of terrible horrific crimes and job title does not preclude murders.

          • JB

            It seems like Chad is just going off of hearsay from other Officers so far. Which is very concerning since he is Police Officer. I was hopeful that he had some concrete evidence but for some reason he can’t be bothered to list it out. Pretty weak.

      • Jfrn

        I think police officers get a bad rap most of the time. Some of it is earned by the arrogant ones, but most are performing in a dangerous occupation. To protect and serve, so with that, much respect.
        However, I do agree with most of the responses you have received. Nobody is above the law. You are probably an upstanding officer and work with the same (I say probably because I do not know you). I do believe this group were not what you would consider upstanding or even honest. There was one who even lied under oath. I do not think this was just the officers or investigators who are completely to blame, I think the whole county, from the judge to the jury, even, are/were corrupt.
        I don’t believe SA is guilty, however I am suspicious of his brother in law and nephew (Brendon’s brother) or TH’s ex boyfriend.
        Just my two cents but I do not believe they have enough to convict him of this crime. So many things were wrong. He did not get a fair trial at all. Because of this, the county gave enough reason to believe he was being framed. They made themselves look guilty. As a person of the law, I’m sure you can see the discrepancies in this entire case.

      • David

        Cops are the worst thugs of all. Sorry Chad but it is true. Not all of them commit crimes but ALL of them lie for each other. This seems to be the main problem in the Avery case. Everyone was just willing to lie and lie.

        Also, please know that there are many examples (hundreds?) of cops murdering people in cold blood.

        I firmly believe that Lenk and Colburn did it.

        • Meghan

          I am wondering is it the police? Or is it their training? Is it coming from higher up the ladder? What about the media? Do we know all there is to know? They could have done it, but why so much hate, and why are they so far off the beaten path?

        • Michael Thomas Elchin

          I don’t think they had anything to do with the murder but I believe they planted evidence. Think about this…it all goes back to the wrongful conviction in 85. He gets rewarded 36 million now the county wants heads to roll…who stands to loose their jobs? Lenk and colburn…now they both promoted making 6 figures a year close to retirement and a full pension…I’ve seen people do alot worse to protect themselves for alot less. Again I don’t think they did it but I know they knew who they wanted to go down for it.

      • Meghan

        Why do you assume the case expedited and solidified with manufactured evidence? I’m not sure I believe the police murdered Teresa. I am glad you are open minded! My experience with police in the state of Wisconsin, have been 50/50 nice or bent on getting some kind of ticket/conviction. I would also be inclined to believe that there would be a brotherhood or a code between police, because I would think they also have 50/50 experiences with the public. There will always be a bad apple but I do not like how people get grouped in with the bad apples and then suffer because of it. I also believe that in general the police are there to help you but I also think the government pushes them into places they shouldn’t be. Like giving out a quota,or announcing that the Police need to clean up the heroin epidemic.. Which I believe is a overreaction. I genuinely liked some of the police that testified but the main players were obvious about being connected to each other. Is there really that much pressure on Police to make arrests, and just use what they have rather than doing an exhaustive investigation? Are some police pushed around by higher ranking officers? What about the government? To me the government is constantly freaking out and writing so many laws that if you were to look at the laws from a distance, they would look like super, super tangled pieces of electronic cords stuck into a tight ball. As a person in this state I feel as if our government has let us down and has been punishing innocent people (like me) for a long time..I just can’t figure out why! Why this keeps happening and our government keeps looking worse…I am ashamed to live here and I am afraid. I have no idea what I can do to fix the real problems. Ok I will shut my mouth now 🙂

      • Sanchioso

        They got Scott Tadych to do it, he connected to Judge Fox who protected him….he screwed up his alibi, but Lenk, Colburn and prosecutors investigators had his back. He had same opportunity to commit as SA and Manitowoc benefits huuuuuuuuge…baa-bye lawsuit and bankruptcy….2 huge motives.

      • Blake W

        how can you say there’s no way the police would ever murder her? they should be a suspect along with a number of others including Avery. you call yourself a cop? terrible.

        • chad

          Ok Blake. You dont want to jump to conclusions with Avery, but you jump to conclusions about me. Terrible.

          • Blake W

            you flat out said you can’t be bothered and ignored everyone when they asked you to list out what evidence outside the documentry proves avery is guilty. all you have given so far is your fellow officers told you so (which at this point i would question if you are really a cop or not)… if you are a cop, you are exactly part of the reason why people are losing faith in police. do everyone a favor and answer some peoples questions on here whom are frustrated with the law over this whole ordeal who don’t have time to go over 100’s of pages of documentation and hours of trial footage like I do, and apparently you have too?

          • chad

            Ok Blake

          • chad

            Let me make it clear what i BELIEVE, not what I know. I believe Avery is guilty of murder. I believe the criminal justice system in Manitowoc County were likely corrupt. I believe that the department wanted Avery to be guilty. I dont automatically excuse the Department because i think Avery is guilty. I think aloy of people in this forum think it needs to be one way, and not the other. I dont. I think the “all of the above” box needs to be checked.

          • chad

            I appreciate your efforts to right the wrongs, Blake. But dont fight the good guys….unless you are a bad guy. If Avery is found to be innocent, i will be the first person to admit, my OPINION, was wrong. Any, and all officers that were corrupt in this case, should be fired. Lenk should have been looking for another job decades ago. Take care Blake.

          • chad

            I guess i will just continue to be “part of the problem”. You take the 3% of Officers that have no business being officers, and apply the way you feel about them, to the 97% of officers who risk their lives for others, who help others in need, who do nothing but good for the community they live in. Maybe YOU are the the problem Blake.
            This is the major problem I have with documentaries like this. They show no footage of the “good” officers, only the “bad” officers. Why? Because people wouldnt watch it. Im out there working my butt off for the right reasons, for my family, and for my community. Like MOST of my Brothers and Sisters in Blue, i dont get in trouble, i am honest, and i do my job. I genuinely care for others. And i would rather earn a medal for saving a life, than get a raise….ANY DAY.
            I shared an opinion that I believe they arrested the correct suspect. I ALSO stated that i believe there was police misconduct that needs to be addressed inmediately.
            As for the evidence, a majority of the evidence wasnt shown. If it had been, they would have needed another 10 episodes. They brought evidence that showed Avery had a prior history being inappropriate and harassing Teresa. And it went beyond just her. He had a history of being violent against women. Proof that he did it? No. But it gives him motive. DNA evidence was misconstrued and edited in the documentary. Was some of the DNA questionable? Maybe. But much of the DNA was solid. Halbach’s license plates were hidden in another abandon car. If you are framing Avery, why take the plates off of the suv? Why hide them? Her camera and phone found, destroyed, outside Avery’s door.
            Have you watched the entirety of Dassey’s confession? The documentary did a great job of making it look coerced and unprofessional….well, the confession looks a little different when watch in its entirety. Dassey goes into extreme detail. Details that are very specific. These confession tapes are available. Watch them.

            And PLEASE dont question the fact that i am a police officer. And PLEASE dont question my integrity. I am one of the good guys. I dont put up with bad cops. Bad cops make the job harder, and more dangerous for the good cops.

          • Blake W

            may I have your badge number sir?

          • chad

            What in the world is your deal Blake? Have i not been respectful to you? Just because i believe the man is guilty doesnt make me a good or bad person. Just like the fact you think he is not guilty, has no bearing on how i feel about you. Im really trying to understand where you are coming from here…..i dont think that is going to happen. I think it best to terminate our conversation.

          • Blake W

            you have missed the point completely chad. there is not enough evidence to convict this man without reasonable doubt. period. even if he is guilty, this investigation, this trial proved nothing. i have never once said he was innocent or guilty, where did you come with saying i thought he was innocent? you and i can’t prove it either way thanks to manitowoc county sheriff’s department. you are an officer of the law, or so you claim to be. you are not above the law to claim the right man is behind bars without undeniable proof. your badge number please?

          • chad

            Haven’t missed the point, Blake. IF the evidence presented in the documentary was ALL of the evidence presented, then there is reasonable doubt, Avery should have walked out of the court a free man that day. However, ALL of the court was not shown in the documentary. I believe Avery was the murderer.

            Evidence can be thrown out in a case. Evidence can be found unreliable. Evidence can be argued against. I happens all the time. Just because SOME evidence is unreliable, or successfully argued against, doesnt mean ALL the evidence is unreliable or unuseable.

            Let me make this very clear….i BELIEVE Avery is guilty. I dont KNOW Avery is guilty. I havent had the opportunity to view ALL of the evidence. I can have an opinion. You can have an opinion. It doesnt mean i am a bad person. It doesnt mean you are a bad person.

            It appears to me, that there were some serious misteps by the Manitowoc Sheriffs Department. Any, and all, corrupt officers should lose their job. I dont like it any more than you do. Like i said, bad, and/or corrupt officers make my job, as an officer, much more difficult and dangerous.
            As for my badge number….why are you requesting that? I am not posting in the performance of my job. Furthermore, i assume you are not a citizen in or around my jurisdiction. And if you are, AND you request, or use, police services, which I am a part of, i will be more than happy to jot down my badge number and name for you. Until that happens, this is a ridiculous request.

          • chad

            And Blake….I can claim anything i want. It doesnt mean i am right. You have made several conclusive statements yourself. Have you not? You are entitled to your opinion. Im not the judge. Im not the jury. So my claim means NOTHING. This documentary was released to address possible problems…..possible corruption……possible misconduct. I dont deny that any of this happened, or happens. And i agree that police corruption is horse shit…I DONT LIKE IT EITHER! I get the feeling, because of a small percentage of bad officers, you have a problem with ALL officers. If that is the case, im sorry. There are alot more good men and women in blue, than bad.

          • Guck

            So I’m taking a guess here but, you work at D1 or D5? They both kind of overlap into the problem area… Not counting parts of the west side and East PH.

          • chad

            Hi Guck. PH? Are you referring to Philadelphia? If so, that is not where i work. I do not work in the state of Pennsylvania….although i have always wanted to visit Philadelphia. Im a Temple fan.

          • Guck

            Price Hill

          • chad

            Nope. What City is that in?

          • Guck

            Cincinnati. We had a little girl get hit with a stray bullet too.

          • chad

            I have responded to that call 3 times in my career. It SUCKS. Every time i have gotten that call, i just happened to have a child the same age. It’s tough to keep it together sometimes.

          • nothingbutthetruth

            Pennsylvania is a beautiful state, go if you can Chad. Your state is beautiful too, for those that enjoy cornfields as far as you can see.

  • Voodoo Economist

    The $36m was actually not to be paid by the State, it would have been the individuals themselves liable for the compensation. This was stated in the documentary. As you can see, this would lead those responsible for the framing being even more motivated to ensure the case disappeared.

    I don’t think I have EVER been this shocked or taken aback by a documentary in my all my life. If was an American citizen, I would be deeply ashamed of the way these two men have been treated, in particular Mr Dassey. Way to stick up for the vulnerable. Some justice.

    • Native New Yorker

      Watch “The Central Park Five” documentary

      • BChase

        Look up the West Memphis Three case, there are HBO Documentaries….Paradise Lost 1,2 3

        • Netski

          That was another witch hunt- and a case where the real murderer was never found. In that case was well I believed it was a family member.

          • JB

            I am unsure who the killer is. All I can say with certainty is that there was not a fair investigation or a fair trial which is a crime in itself.

      • Meghan

        I watched it last night! OMG! I can’t believe those boys sat for almost 11+ years (took longest sentence and smooshed together, some only had 7 but still). They lost the most important part of their lives! Was this common in the 80’s? I wasn’t born till ’84 so.. Yea.

        • Kaitain

          The case and trial took place in the mid-90s. As with the Avery case, there was a youngster with a low IQ who was essentially coached into giving the story that the police wanted, and this proved crucial in the conviction.

          • Meghan

            Yes I noticed can’t remember name but I think he learned his hearing was impaired and was the oldest so he had to go to Riker’s Island. So sad..I saw a glimmer of Brendan in this boy, the not sending the whole picture for one.

    • Meghan

      I am actually embarrassed to live in the state of Wisconsin. I am very afraid of our Government and Justice system. I have no faith that in any situation that would require Government assistance or the police, that Justice would prevail. I have been burned and have watched others burn helplessly by the system.

    • Scott Henry

      Assuming you’re talking about the people working for Manitowoc Country, I don’t think it’s possible for individuals to be held financially responsible for actions taken while acting as employees. I do remember the documentary stating the insurance policy would not cover the amount based on the circumstances, leaving the state responsible for payment.

  • James William

    Most lawyers and counsel have body language experts that can easily tell which way each juror is going to lean based off their reactions and movements during the trial. It would not be that difficult for the prosecution to pin point which jurors were leaning toward an innocent verdict and then pay them off. Not saying that is what happened but it is entirely plausible.

  • thebobenna

    What haunts me, besides all the weird evidence:

    1. Brendan crying on the phone (uncoerced?) to his Mom that he and Steve “did it”.
    2. Previously deposed officer Colburn called in Teresa’s plate. The plate was not on the car when her cousin discovered her vehicle on the Avery property, as she said on the phone call while looking at the vehicle (not a recollection). He goes on to nod his head “yes” while saying no he did not plant evidence while on the stand.
    3. The amount of people who can “figure out” Teresa’s phone/voicemail log-in info. Not just her voicemail, her phone records were miraculously uncovered too.
    4. Prosecutor implying “acusing officer involvement” is somehow more deplorable than if it were any other person. As if an officer and their integrity is ranked higher than any other person. People are people. Desperation is desperation. It knows no limit. Sorry, a profession does not make you infallible.

    • Rebekah Lynn

      What bothers me is the judge. I cannot understand the speech at the sentencing. He paints Avey as this hellish person, who has done all these evil things to people. He takes into account the previous crime he did not commit. This whole thing is just the craziest thing I have ever seen.

      • t. owens

        If someone was set to receive a multi-million dollar law suit…..would they kill someone? IQ of 70 or not! Avery seems like he knows that would be stupid!!

      • Rkant

        Think the judge was referring to old crimes where he waved a gun at a woman and burned a cat.

      • Meghan

        Yes the judge was expressionless and seemed like he just liked to say no to the defense…maybe even the judge was in the prosecution’s pocket..he did not make anything fair at all. It is like all common sense ,with everyone except the Lawyers for Steven, just flew right out the window. Like I said before as Teresa’s parents and family..how could they be satisfied? I saw them with puzzled expressions…why not use all the energy they put out to find Teresa in the beginning, to actually find her real killer!?

      • Kim Li

        Why is there the same judge all the time?

    • aoifemacmahon

      The plate also bothered me. Just the way he calls it in, then lies under oath on the stand when we have all just heard him say “99 Toyota” ,(sounding to me like he is looking at a 99Toyota car and just read off the plates to confirm what he is looking at imo), and he says he thought the dispatcher said that not him, so it is then replayed for him, he looks nervous but has to admit he said it. This somehow seems like a point where he is super nervous that this information was unearthed.
      Is it possible that this officer Colburn could have come across this car with or without Teresa in it, alive or dead, hears it’s of the missing girl and instead of calling it in has some kind of vendeta against SA so he disposes of her to frame SA?
      Sounds far fetched but after hearing the call is possible and needs to be ruled out!

  • bourgeoisie scum

    he obviously did it, there’s no explaining away the dna evidence (including the sweat under the hood on the latch) I suspect that shady things were afoot hoping to guarantee a conviction, but c’mon, this guy was a friggin psychopath and had the motive, the means and the opportunity.

    • Matt

      Motive? What motive? The ex boyfriend would obviously have more of a motive than Avery.

    • Jfrn

      What leads you to believe he was, in fact, a psychopath? The DNA evidence shouldve been thrown out. The testing of the blood found in the car could’ve been planted. And don’t give me the EDTA spill. The “so called testing” done proved nothing, as it was done without any test controls. There MUST be test controls in order to have a threshold of detection. The DNA on the bullet should’ve called for a mistrial, as evidence was admitted that never should have been, by their own protocol. A contaminated test must always be deemed inconclusive. Not SA’s fault the lab technician used the entire sample, which, was minuscule. Doesn’t follow protocol by way of contaminated sample…not admissible.

    • Derek Delongchamp

      And what motive was that? To piss away the 36 million he was gonna get from his first wrongful conviction at the hands of those shady cops? He may not be the brightest but even he wouldn’t be that stupid to not only do it but leave so many pieces of evidence to be found when he went through all that trouble to clean the whole place of her blood and DNA. C’mon man, give your head a shake. You sound like you would have been a prefect selection for his jury…

  • Debby Sweet

    They were never going to pay out that kind of money in the first place from when he was released. It wouldn’t have been there to hand out to anyone period!! Wisconsin was already going broke as he got out. Check your history.

    • Chris Drudge

      The ability to pay or not doesn’t enter into the equation for civil judgements. The judgement is made and if you can’t pay, then you either pay as your able or property can be sold off to settle the judgement. Some assets may be protected but others may not be with the help of a court to enforce a judgement.

      • Debby Sweet

        So, you are still saying that it is OKAY for an innocent man to sit and rot in prison (which he could have the first time THANK GOD FOR DNA) and NOT be reimbursed for his pain all those years? If he had of just kept his mouth shut and NEVER once complained…..he just MIGHT get to live his life after all? There were punitive damages but hey, The corrupt officials enjoyed complete impunity didn’t they????? NO-ONE is above the law!!!

        • Chris Drudge

          No, I didn’t say anything of the sorts. His lawsuit after his release was a civil matter and you said that they were never going to pay it out because Wisconsin didn’t have the money. I was pointing out that even if Wisconsin didn’t have a dime he still could have won that lawsuit and Wisconsin would be on the hook for it until they do pay it. Whether it’s today, tomorrow, or years from now.

  • Craig Cowen

    I am not certain of Steven’s guilt and I very much question Brendan’s. But I am sure that there should have been a lot of evidence in the bedroom if her throat was slashed and she was tied to the bed. You couldn’t get that mattress clean. It was mentioned by the prosecutor that sometimes police plant evidence to help along a case when they know the accused is guilty. Well, so much for innocent until proven guilty. Also, how could they not have searched the other trailers? I really feel like they focused on Steven. We certainly don’t know the whole truth from many angles.

    • ReginaFalange

      Also, there would of been blood in the garage. Like they pointed out, he would not of been able to go piece by piece and hunt for blood or dna on all the stuff piled in that garage. There would also be blood in the concrete.

      • Cynthia Kontos

        And the garage and the trailer were pretty messy. Looking at the state of the garage before they started taking it apart clearly shows that there is no way Avery “disposed” of any crime scenes. Same with the trailer.

        • ReginaFalange

          I so agree!

        • JB

          When you are dealing with potential crime scenes isn’t there a gajillion photos taken of everything before they start moving things around as well as after documenting everything? Where are all those photos? Also when you are moving things to conduct a criminal search, shouldn’t it be done carefully and controlled? In regards to the bookshelf, why did Officer Colburn say “Well I’ll be the first to admit, I handled it rather roughly, and shook and twisted it.” Why would anyone handle a bookshelf roughly? And what, we’re expected to believe all the other stuff in the bookshelf stayed in there and just the key they were looking for fell out and landed on the floor? It doesn’t make sense.

          • Meghan

            Didn’t at one point they said they had over 900 pieces of evidence collected? I would imagine that there prob were gazillions of pictures, and I bet there had to be a before and after of the “key” spot..unless the pictures and evidence was tampered with..and by the “blood tube” footage…I wouldn’t put it past ’em…that they didn’t follow protocol, threw away stuff etc.

          • JB

            Yes, you’re right, that’s a lot of pieces of evidence. Hopefully there are photos before and after or perhaps video footage before, during and after the searches where they mysteriously found the key after getting rough with that bookshelf and mysteriously found that bullet with Teresa’s DNA in the garage which was six months later.

          • Meghan

            I love your “Mysteriouslys” well played! I want to look up some of the case files but compared to every other crime I have seen.. (not in person)…on web they have order. Like statements, evidence, crime photos, all I have seen is a bunch of people talking.

          • JB

            I wonder what the number of evidence items are covered in the documentary? Anyone know this? I still have yet to read or see any evidence that could convict Avery without resonable doubt. So far all the evidence Prosecutor Ken Kratz lists out when speaking to the media recently where he criticizes the documentary for leaving out crucial evidence, it is just as convoluted and arguable as the evidence in the movie. It still falls under reasonable doubt. So far the people in this discussion that have said there is evidence if you study the case, they haven’t addressed anything. Chad, Bourgeoisie Scum, or anyone else, open invitation here, let’s see what you’ve got?

          • Meghan

            I agree! I just saw Nancy Grace and Donnie Walhburg are discussing Making a Murderer tonight…that woman is so opinionated and can’t seem to figure out what facts are either.. Last clip I saw of her was of her shouting Steven is Guilty. We need actual evidence.

          • Laurie Anne

            I can’t stomach that sour-pussed woman. How she ever got her own show is beyond me.

          • Meghan

            I know me either. I was shocked when I saw it but will prob watch so I can make faces at her and yell swears lol

          • Michael Thomas Elchin

            Yo are so right…I keep hearing that we haven’t hear all the evidence…well then wtf is it?

          • Meghan

            Google Court Transcripts Steven Avery! I found a bunch of case files. I also live here so I could look up the case on the CCaps but it doesn’t have the actual docs just summaries, like the pretrial had 16 “exhibits” that were photos and papers…that make no sense like Exhibit 9 Certified Copy of Judgement and conviction of complaint for 85 FE3.

          • Jfrn

            Completely agree. Dispute the evidence, or lack there of, with substance instead of the typical name calling or saying to read the transcripts.

          • Jfrn

            Crazy to even begin to believe that. Crime scene investigators are supposed to be really good at doing their job. Leaving no stone left unturn. I highly doubt that the bookcase was not searched to begin with. It’s these basic things that lead me to believe that he was set up. It was an easy drop for Lenk, and since he had another county watching his moves, he had to make the drop when the opportunity arose. That, in my opinion, was the best he was going to be able to do with all of the “eyes” around.

            It’s scary to think they thought people were such idiots. That has to go down as the worst “drop” in history.

    • Michael C. Allevato

      Yea, did u notice how the prosecution left that throat cutting thing out, and said she was shot in the garage. Because, that little bedroom would have been a mess. Forensics would have found all kinds of stuff. Blood, hair, pieces of clothing material, and why would Branden say he cut her throat, when it’s clear he did not or it would have been a forensics field day in the bedroom. This whole thing was a conspiracy. 32 mill will make a crook outta of an honest person. And come on he parked the car in his yard instead of crushing it down with there car crusher, burned the body in his hard……hahahaha NO FREAKEN WAY The guy wasn’t that stupid. Lesson to be learned………..don’t get in trouble in Manitowoc County.

      • Meghan

        I noticed all these little discrepancies! It makes no sense what so ever, if you were to solely believe the prosecutors. I thought that all of the main players of the prosecution and Len, Brandon’s lawyer (he was an obvious plant from the state) all were smiley, smug and had attitudes. Very unprofessional, and how could that poor girl’s family believe the prosecution? Something weird was going on with the brother, because if your IQ was 70 – 200 you could still plainly see this was a set up.

    • Jf

      If she was,in fact, cuffed to the bed… there would be damages on the head board, blood all over the room. And many more pictures of evidence from the bedroom that would have been presented by the prosecutors. I have a feeling the victums family was involved some how and working with police.

      • JB

        There is no evidence whatsoever that cuffs come into play. It’s only Avery’s nephew very questionable ‘confession’ while the police basically get him to say what they want that involves cuffs. It’s possible that the police knew Avery purchased cuffs 3 weeks prior to the murder (which is apparently one of the big criticized pieces of evidence against Avery not shown in documentary) but since there is no evidence supporting cuffs in the murder, purchasing cuffs is irrelevant, is it not? And if the police knew Avery purchased cuffs maybe that’s why the police were relentless with having the nephew ‘confess’ to the use of cuffs. If anything it seems like another instance of the police trying to frame Avery.

  • Chris Drudge

    As mentioned in one of the episodes, insurance policies that normally would cover police departments for legitimate accidents, mistakes, and errors would not apply. The policy didn’t cover intentional and egregious conduct being claimed.

    • JB

      Right, so they wouldn’t be covered. My question is why is their behavior not being punished? Are they still Police Officers? I’d feel sick to my stomach knowing these were the people being paid to protect me and my family and community.

      • Chris Drudge

        They’re not being punished because the people that investigate them, the Wisconsin Department of Justice Divison of Criminal Investigation (DCI) said that everything is all a-ok. Wisconsin is investigating and policing Wisconsin. It’s an exercise up to you to decide how impartial that is.

        • JB

          It’s as impartial as the investigation and trial. Why does this not surprise me? So who is above the State of Wisconsin?

          • Chris Drudge

            Federal Courts and/or FBI would be the next level. They wouldn’t particularly be investigating if Avery/Dassey committed murder, but they would look at if their civil/constitutional rights were violated, due process followed, etc.

          • JB

            Is there any indication that the Federal Courts and/or FBI are getting involved regarding their civil/constitutional rights being violated? If not, how is that possible?

          • Chris Drudge

            Dassey has filed a petition for habeas corpus and is waiting to hear back. I don’t think Avery has at the federal level, but did again at the state level and hasn’t heard back on his appeal of the district court that denied it. He’s also just got new counsel last Friday that specializes in wrongful convictions so at least he’s not going at it alone still.

            No idea as to the FBI. That may not happen at all, or maybe it’ll happen if/when one or both of them are released (and the inevitable lawsuit).

          • Meghan

            I read about that, though wondering why he switched lawyers..I loved the ones he had. I was hoping they might help Brenden too. But I don’t know if they have other cases and if they could do it pro bono. It just felt like they were very invested!

          • Jfrn

            My guess is that, although they truly believe in both SA and BD, the may feel as though they have given it their best run. Allowing someone of a much larger stature to come in and take over this case, as is what is happening now, would allow a different source of investigating, digging, and more available resources to give them a better shot, so to speak. I also think that the type of lawyers on the case now have more of a civil rights background, which, is basically at the point they are at now. Not only to prove innocence, but to prove the injustices that consumed this case.

          • Meghan

            Thank you Good Answer :)! That makes a lot of sense!

          • Chris Drudge

            He didn’t switch lawyers. He didn’t really have one anymore. When he exhausted his state appeals, his entitlement to a public defender was over. Further appeals or petitions other issues come either at his own expense or at his own effort.

            Lawyers are like doctors, they specialize in particular areas. Some do estate planning and family matters. Some do criminal law. Some specialize in being incompetent dicks (looks at Len Kachinsky). I believe it was Brendan’s lawyer that said they don’t get many murder cases and it was his 3rd case and 2nd to actually go to trial. You don’t want a novice to take the lead in your appeal if you can help it. The Zellner law firm specializes in civil rights and wrongful conviction appeals.

  • Chris Drudge

    I think the chance for tons of publicity made him drunk with stupidity. It was his chance to be the next Johnny Cochran, Shiparo, Kardashian, etc. If he gets a confession (and Dassey actually did it) his client gets a lesser sentence, Avery goes away forever more easily, and he does his legal duty. The only thing he didn’t plan on was the dumb kid not actually doing it and not wanting to plead.

  • ConstantNSharp

    Nothing more than a hunch but my gut says that it could have been her brother, Michael. Just based on the fact that you are most likely to be killed by someone you know well than you are a stranger. Also, he seems to have behavior patterns consistent with that of a sociopath. It’s obvious that he loves getting in front of the camera and giving his own (understandably) biased analysis. I’m not talking about just answering questions asked by the press, he seems to be actively seeking the chance to get on camera every chance he gets. Killers have a tendency and desire to inject themselves into the case intentionally. Just an observation, nothing more than that.

    • CrisBNice

      Ewww I felt like it was her brother too. The very first interview on camera when they were looking for her, he makes reference to mourning her. As though he already knows she’s dead

      • Meghan

        He never has any emotions either….

    • Amber

      Michael bothered me from the get go. When he was first being interviewed, hours after she was reported missing, he already spoke as if she were dead, not simply missing. And, he was the first person to hack into her phone, and messages mysteriously disappeared.

    • Meghan

      I wondered about that too… Never saw any other family members that were on camera and absolutely convinced…he made himself look like his IQ was 70.

    • IJ2014

      I also found it bizarre that in the Theresa footage shown, she mentions loving her “mom and sisters.” No specific mentions of the brothers.
      The whole thing is just wild.

      And Ken Kranz is a disgusting human being.

      • Jf

        That video of her was the first and last thing that has stayed in my mind. Im wondering if police paid off her and the family to fake her death. Those bones could belong to anyone… it’s just too fishy to me.

      • Meghan

        Who is Ken Krantz I forgot? Sorry 🙁

        • Laurie Anne

          The pig who was sexting the poor victims of domestic abuse. Loathsome creep.

          • Meghan

            really!? Ouch..is there a link to read about that?

        • IJ2014

          He was the pompous District Attorney who got caught up in multiple ‘sexting’ scandals after the verdicts.

    • Diane

      I also thought it was odd that Michael admitted outside the court room to not watching the interrogation tapes of Brendan!? If that was my sister, I would watch everything that had to do with the disappearance and murder.

  • dan wipper

    Its because they the two officers committed the murder themselves.

    • Diane

      I also think this is plausible. Unfortunately, plausible.

    • JB

      Dan, what’s your theory with the two police officers?

  • dan wipper

    Amila; you would suck at the game of clue; You left out that the officers could have killed her. Why is everyone afraid to consider it? Weird. Not explaining why however the officers are the only possible killers. Now, figure it out.

    • JB

      Here’s a theory… What if TH killed herself? Do you remember that weird footage where she says something to the effect of if I died I want people to know I was happy? What the actual eff was that all about? I have a hard time believing the police officers would kill her, but I wouldn’t have a hard time believing that they used a suicide to frame SA. Thoughts?

      • JB

        Having said that I’d have a hard time beilieving the police officers killed TH, I do strongly feel they should be considered.

      • Meghan

        I think it could be a possibility that she committed suicide but how…shot herself? Then policed used her to frame Avery? It is just weird…no one saw her except Bobby Dassey, That Krantz dude, Avery, the bus driver and maybe Brendan Dassey. All saw her taking pictures of the van. But Bobby and The Krantz dude…were each other’s alibi’s in that they passed each other on the road to go hunting…at 3-4pm..? I thought hunter’s always went out in the early am hours? Why were they randomly hunting? Hunting Teresa?

        • JB

          I hear ya Meghan. It does sound odd to go hunting that late in the day, it would be dark soon right? Maybe it was a hunting accident where they invited her along once she was done taking photos? Then, the two guys panicked trying to hide the rav4 and her body even though it was an accident. My thing is how Officer Colborn called Teresa’s license plate number in before Teresa was reported missing. Which you gotta wonder the police involvement before everyone knew she was missing. But Yes, so so so many weird things that don’t add up.

          • Jf

            She faked her death for $? It wouldn’t be inreasonable. Family shows no remorse ( because they know she is fine) brother does all the talking ( police tell him all the right things to say) Avery goes away, police get off.

        • JB

          To add to the strange hunting trip, Scott Tadych says he left to go hunting at 3:15 pm but Barb (on the phone call with Brendan) left the house at 5 PM to visit with Scott at the hospital that same night. Was Scott present for the hospital visit? 1:45 minute hunting trip including drive time is very short.

          • Meghan

            I thought so.

      • Janet Corbett

        Agree with you 100%

  • kris

    What about the roommate? They did not investigate him and he was LIVING with her and didn’t report her missibg. He also helped the ex boyfriend hack her voicemails, and was only seen momentarily for the search party. Was he questioned or incestigated?

    • Meghan

      Nope I remember the defense asking the ex-boyfriend if he was treated as a suspect and he said no. So I’m going to say they did not investigate anyone but Steven. Especially that recorded phone call where the officer specifically asks if they had arrested Steven before they knew what happened to Tracey…and honestly I don’t think we do know what happened to the poor girl other than being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

      • JB

        The police said they did investigate others but they never say who and we didn’t get to see proof that they did. I’d like to see the proof and know the extent of the investigation concerning others.

        • Meghan

          Yea me too, I am assuming they honestly didn’t bother to check out any other suspects and that later they said under oath..”oh yeah we did look at other suspects”..just from the facial expressions of the cops and how they said things…it seems like it was just a joke to them. I remember The manitowoc officer colburn…answering “No sir, then loudly No I MOST DEFINATELY DID NOT!” Real snotty like..I could be wrong about what exact words he said but I will never forget the smirk on his face. I don’t remember why question either . Plus the DA for the State looked as if he was a sissy and would bust out in giggles at any time during the trial. Sorry my opinion he looks like a doughboy sissy. I just can’t help it, to describe him that way. One other thing? Was it me or did Steven looked doped up? I thought Man he is really suffering if he looks that high, and as if he had been constantly crying. I feel so awful, and he displayed more emotion then half the people in the trial combined!

  • Truth Hertz

    There is no proof that this anonymous person was actually a juror.

    • Cynthia Kontos

      Actually, the juror came forward is the one that was dismissed for a family emergency.

      • Scott Henry

        Manitowoc PD probably caused that “family emergency”

  • Silvia Diego

    When they said Ken Kranz was accused of sexual assault I instantly said to myself , ‘That’s it!! It was him!’. He was the one behind Teresa’s deleted messages. But no one said anything and I leave it there.

    But that’s my theory, I’m sure Kranz was involved.

    • IJ2014

      You can tell just by looking at him that he’s a shady, crooked human being. Disgusting!

  • Tammy Ellaree White

    There is tons of reasonable doubt.

  • Michele Szumera

    I absolutely believe that both Steven an Brandon are Innocent an I truly believe that the ex boyfriend had alot to do with her death an planted the car he new exactly were to go look for her and the car before anybody else an him in her voicemail is proof to me that he deleted the messages he didn’t want heard. Also her coworker even said she was getting prank calls from someone an I believe it was the ex boyfriend!!! This is a real travesty of Justice an it makes me sick what they did to this family to Steven and that poor kid my God how can they get away with that!!! Sickening!!

  • Justine

    Money is the root of all evil. You better believe that evidence was planted & tampered with & confessions were coerced. Even if he DID or Didn’t do it for that matter they still were going to make sure he was the one charged! $36 million is enough to make someone go away! They didn’t think all of this would happen. They thought they got away with it just like all “criminals” think they wont get caught! Shame on them! Avery by no means was a good guy, but he doesn’t deserve to be tossed away without having a fair trial. There is no solid evidence! All they have is the key (which was planted) and the blood in her car which I believe was planted as well! This should’ve been thrown out as soon as Manitowoc officers were known to have entered his residence! I could go on and on…lol

  • Andrew Oates

    Why wasn’t the 36 million dollars in the defense’s case? We all believe if the cops did frame him, it was cause of the 36 million. Why didn’t the defense start and finish with that?

    But we were all yelling at the TV on how seriously challenged the Avery’s and Dassey’s were. Especially Steven Avery as soon as they arrested him for the murder he sat in the room and talked with detectives without his lawyer. You just got screwed by the cops once, why would you ever talk to them without a lawyer?!

    And lastly, why didn’t Brenden Dassey’s defense call Barb Dassey to the stand after the one police officer said that she did not want to come into the room while he was being interrogated. That was clearly a lie and it’s crazy ppl haven’t said anything about an adolescent being able to speak to cops without a guardian or lawyer. He’s still officially a child

    Bottom line, it is unfortunate of how mentally challenged Steve Avery and Brenden Dassey (as well as his mom, Barb) is. Any normal citizen knows his or her rights and probably wouldn’t have gotten that far to even get arrested let alone go to trial

    • Meghan

      I was under the impression that the defense’s hands were tied on a lot of the stuff from the past because the judge wouldn’t allow it to be admissible. That is why the State Prosecutor kept saying ” Don’t take into account Steven Avery was innocently convicted of rape, this is about now.” Not in those exact words but similar, they could bring it up but not the defense. I think the defense in spite of all the obstacles put towards them, they did a great job and were very creative in getting around “stuff they weren’t supposed to bring up or say”.

  • Ryan Case

    To be found guilty you must be proven to be guilty beyond any reasonable doubt. I’ve never seen anything so ridiculous. As far as I can tell there’s more reasonable doubt then there is evidence. I’m baffled as to how this can go on anywhere in this country. Somebody needs to do something.

  • Ryan Case

    I don’t even know what to say about the kid. I don’t think I’ve ever been as shocked in my life as when they found him guilty. They’re taking advantage of simpletons and its disgusting.

  • common sense

    The failire of this whole trial was the judge. Im not sure if he is guilty or not but I do know as a society more should be done when sendong people away. There is just way too many inconsistencies to have a verdict like they did. They should of never kept that case in that county. How they have not opened this case back up is pretty alarming.

  • Doug Knapp

    My biggest thing about this entire case is what person in their right mind who knows they’re about to get $36 million is going to rape murder and destroyed their future I know if I was in his shoes and I knew I was getting $36 million I’m pretty sure I’d be a model citizen if I was put in jail for 18 years of my life for a crime I didn’t commit I would never want to step foot in another prison forever

    • Diane

      Totally agree Doug! I couldn’t understand why the documentary would not talk about your point. I mean what would be Steve’s motive???

      • Laurie Anne

        I thought they did make that very clear, actually, without actually saying it. Steven was engaged to a cute lady and really happy and about to be rich. There was just no reason on earth for him to have done this.

  • PhilMcCraken

    Manitowoc- Come for the view, stay for the murder rap.

  • Tamara

    The ex boyfriend and brother are responsible. They knew that she was going there to photograph that car. All the missed calls and messages that were on her voicemail that were erased are most likely them making contact with her. She was going to Steven Avery’s property, he was just released after being falsely imprisoned, I’m sure she was constantly on the phone with somebody. Giving them a play by play, that somebody is the murderer. Can you please let Steven Avery out of jail now.
    Also, I could see the brother in law being involved as well. Receive another the picture the family would have the money and Steven would be in jail. They weren’t smart enough to think that if Steven went back to jail for a crime that he would never get the money. The whole thing is fishy every angle of it is fishy. Except in the angle of Steven he is innocent. I don’t care what evidence you show me the evidence that I’ve seen already proves that he didn’t do it. There’s nothing that anybody could do now to make it better for him he’s spent his whole life in jail for a crime that he did not commit. How do you make that better what are you going to do for him to make that better. Money does not buy time. Leave the man alone and let him out of jail.

  • Rkant

    So many unanswered questions.
    -Did Steven really have a bonfire that night? The odds of him having one and then a body is disposed of there by someone else seem pretty slim (unless other family members did it).
    -What’s the explanation for the cut on his finger? Sure we all get cuts, but that’s a pretty big one.
    -I read online that he dealt with Teresa three time and would call and specifically request her. That coupled with the fact that his girlfriend had been in jail for 6 months is a pretty bad combo. Was he the one who she felt uncomfortable with on the phone?
    -Can’t they figure out what messages were deleted? And where were all the phone records to back up the stories? Did Steven really call Brendan when Brendan said he did?
    -I too believe there were a lot of shady things going on. Just the fact that those same officers were in his trailer is so horribly wrong. But I still feel like there is a lot of things pointing to Steven (namely a body behind his trailer).

    • Pegasus999

      I’m curious about the bonfire too. Correct me if I’m wrong, but if somebody is burning a body, doesn’t it smell really bad? Anybody notice that?

      • Jf

        And unless he raped, shot, and dismantled her body next the fire…. how did he get her body from the:bed room, to the garage, then out to the area of the bon fire without a spec of evidence that follows? Seriously?

    • Jfrn

      Apparently, and I read this in an experts opinion, it would take a long time to burn a body and get it to the state TH’s was in. This bonfire, as per the court, was only two hours. The time it took to kill her, and then burn her body to the way it was found, it would take something like 15 plus hours.
      The phone records were a disaster. Nobody looked into anyone’s phone records but TH’s and, I’m assuming SA’s, although, I haven’t found where SA’s were presented.
      The person who took the calls for Autotrader says the conversation of TH being fearful of SA, wasn’t really how it has been presented. She says that, TH had told her that one time SA answered the door in a towel. They laughed about it and TH followed that with “eww”.

      • JB

        I’d like to know more about all the phone records too. I’d also like to know what was on the deleted messages of Teresa’s phone. Also if gun shots were fired, wouldn’t a lot of people had heard them?

      • JB

        Coming to the door in a towel is not a crime but one of the more interesting pieces of info I have read regarding Avery’s phone records are two calls to Teresa before she arrived where *67 was used to block his name and then one call to Teresa not blocking his name after she left. Thoughts?

        • Jfrn

          I’m not sure how to feel about that. I don’t think it was a lure, however, as per the timeline, she should’ve already been on her way or there. I would like to see SA’s actual phone record, not just TH’s that shows a blocked incoming call. Her phone records show that she also blocked a number from calling before this. It obviously wasn’t SA’s number, so who’s was it?
          Also, the towel. I think that may be the norm for him. He wasn’t the most classy guy, but from what the Autotrader secretary states is that this incident wasn’t what the PA tries to claim.

    • Diane

      The bonfire itself wouldn’t mean anything. Many people who live in the country have bonfires.

  • Becky Shelton Young

    Crud. Now I have to go back and watch the darned thing again. I think, since I watch Netflix to go to sleep, that I must have missed some crucial stuff. This is interesting.

  • N Martin

    Watched this on Netflix. Yet another glowing miscarriage of justice. I’d say it was unbelievable, but it happens way too much, I’ve seen too much, and I don’t even follow criminal trails/crimes in an enthusiastic way. Agree – “Beyond reasonable doubt” should have prevented this from even going to trial. Agree – the ex-boyfriend, and the brother-in-law make great suspects. Since the government (the real criminal via extension of DA, judge, Manitowac LEO, etc.) isn’t going to do anything, this is one for folks who involve themselves as “cold case” investigators to take on. Besides the people rotting in jail, Theresa is also damned in that her murder has not been solved. I can appreciate emotionality biasing her family enough to think that justice was served, but any objective view can clearly see that it was not. Theresa deserved better than she received in this clown show of injustice.

  • Linda Lynn

    I think the police officer who called in the plate number of Teresa’s car had found the car with Teresa’s body in the back. I believe he then planted the car and body on the Avery property. I also believe it could have been any of the other subjects in the theory responsible for Teresa’s death. There is so much evidence that could have been tampered with that to prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt is impossible. That alone should be reason for someone to overturn this sentence of Steve Avery. This might sound cold but, Steven Avery served 18 years in prison for a crime he didn’t commit. I feel if he did kill Teresa he spent 18 years in prison for it. If he didn’t kill Teresa he served 18 years for doing nothing wrong. Do we want to make another error and take all of this man’s life away when he is innocent? What reason would he want to kill Teresa? He was finally free. He had a woman he wanted to marry. He had a job and was going to receive millions of dollars in compensation. Why would he kill Teresa and give all that up? I don’t believe he did. I think he is innocent. This case make me sick. It should have been thrown out when all of the involvement from the biased police department was discovered. They were involved way too much in this case when they shouldn’t have been in it at all. This is NOT justice!

    • JB

      I agree Linda, this was a man happy to finally be free and ready to get married with millions of dollars on the way… What was his motive for killing Teresa? I haven’t heard a single motive.

    • Laurie Anne

      I have had that same thought, and actually, he has now spent over 26 years in prison. Esp. since there is TONS of reasonable doubt on this one, and he was in no way guilty the first time, let that man OUT!

  • CrisBNice

    Another observation which struck me odd was, the jury found Avery guilty of murder yet not guilty of desecration of a corpse.
    So they believed he killed her but did not dispose of her body?

    • Netski

      Apparently in order to get their murder conviction the jurors that wanted him guilty bartered with the other’s to let some of the charges go if they agreed on other’s. Which of course makes no sense at all if you are holding out for not guilty.

      • CrisBNice

        Agreed.
        Its an indication of the jury’s understanding and/or regard of/for their role.

  • chad

    Study the case and evaluate ALL the evidence. Your opinion will be much different. Dont base your opinion on the documentary. The documentary supported the defense, and told Avery’s story as a defense attorney would present it.

    • Jfrn

      I have studied the case and nothing left out convinced me. Even what was left out can be explained away. I think the documentary does favor the defense, but only because the Avery’s were the only ones who would allow them in. So, by that perspective, it looks like they only want to tell his side. As far as the trial itself, I think what was presented was what both parties considered to be the most important (that was admissible, but don’t get me started on that) on both sides. In any case, this case should have been declared a mistrial on many counts, and more than enough reasonable doubt for anyone to come back with a not guilty verdict. This entire case was a complete failure in our justice system.

      • chad

        If you studied the case, i promise you, you would bot have the same opinion. Are you sure you have explored all the evidence and circumstances presented in the case? I do agree that there was some failure from ground level on up. But the evidence is overwhelming. Avery is a scary human being. He is presented in a way that is completely inaccurate.

        • Fastguy77

          OK, can you name some of this evidence? And I don’t mean him dousing a cat in oil and burning it.

          • Jeremiah Washington

            “There were many other leads they just didn’t investigate. The other 4 men living on the property. Steven’s brothers Chuck and Earl…both of whom had histories of abuse of women. I read that when the police came to question Earl, they found him hiding under some clothes in a closet. Scott, the brother in law and Bobby Dassey, Brendan’s brother…. only had alibis for each other and their timelines seem to be out of synch with the bus driver and seemed too quick to point a finger at Steven. Finally, the ex boyfriend who hacked her phone was never

          • Fastguy77

            Aside from this guy ‘supposedly’ hiding under clothes, all of that other stuff was mentioned.

        • JB

          Chad, can you list out this overwhelming evidence point form that you speak of?

          • Mary Bragg

            Avery’s SWEAT that was found on the car latch under the hood. Blood is one thing but how do collect and plant sweat? Who would even think to plant sweat?

          • Jfrn

            It was actually transferred DNA. Per the defense, the DNA was not proven to be sweat, just that it was not blood. This can be anything from skin cells to sweat. Since it was Transfer DNA, that gives me even more reason to point towards a cover up. Experts have said, siblings and children share the same DNA, which does not exclude SA’s nephew (Brendon’s brother). I’m leaning toward the nephew and the brother in law as the persons responsible. I cannot fathom why these two were not considered suspects, especially given their history.

          • chad

            No. The transfer DNA was the defense’s attempted argument. The DNA expert explained why it wasnt. The documentary strategically cut and edited her testimony to look as if they were arguing solely about her transfer DNA found during testing.

          • carbolaw

            Are you referring to Culhane’s testimony Chad? According to the news reports from the day of Culhane’s testimony, she testified that she could not disprove the defense counsel’s argument that the DNA could have been planted in both places and that the DNa under the hood could have been from sources other than sweat. Were those reports wrong or are you perhaps a bit biased that the police are never wrong and definitely never would engage in intentional malfeasance?

          • Bill Hendershot

            I believe the defense got an investigator to admit that he didnt change his gloves before opening the hood of the vehicle as well..so that DNA could have came from inside his house originally.

          • chad

            Well i dont know, Carbolaw……considering that i have outwardly scolded the corrupt officers in this case, and country……i would say the “bias” argument is moot.

          • Deb

            The County had no business being there at all at any time after 11/05 when they found the vehicle. That taints any and all evidence collected by them, any utterances from their mouths or any evidence submitted but not seen or understood by this lil ole county gal. Manitowoc County totally messed up and perhaps now the truth will never be known. Not all officers are beyond corruption. Wisconsinites are too naïve and trusting when it comes to police. They have so much power, they HAVE to be incorruptible. Country gal done.

          • JB

            My thoughts too Deb. From a Canadian gal, over and out.

          • Bill Hendershot

            This being the same “expert” who back in 85 said Averys hair was on the rape victim?..

          • chad

            What do you think Bill?

          • Bill Hendershot

            I think someone else did it. This guy was no angel and he certainly wasn’t smart,but I cant believe he was dumb enough to supposedly call this girl to his property,do what he supposedly did to her,leave incriminating evidence right outside his front door…clean up all the DNA evidence in and out of the house and garage,yet leave his blood inside the SUV. Park it a 100 yards from a compactor and cover it with a few branches.All when he was about to come into a lot of money within a month or so…there is too much reasonable doubt to convict him. Yeah I know all about his past that they didnt show yada yada yada,but what was shown proved there was more than reasonable doubt….Truthfully I think Bobby and his moms boyfriend or Teresas ex boyfriend did it. The cops helped with tampering with evidence to make sure he went to jail for good…no way were they going to be made fools of by a back woods inbred hillbilly…Just my Opinion,

          • chad

            He actually made the appointment using his sister’s name. And he had called her several times, prior to her arrival, while blocking his number. That doeant make him guilty, but it is definitely something to thing about. Your theory is definitely plausible

          • Bill Hendershot

            But he didnt call her phone…he called the office. And if she was afraid of him,why on earth would she go to the Avery compound? She knew where she was going.

          • chad

            My understanding is that he set the appointment up in his sister’s name. Im not sure if she was “afraid” of him, or if she just thought he was weird and a jerk. Not sure why she would go out there. My thought is, she was paid by the photograph/account..or that the Avery “junkyard” was a big account for the magazine. Either of those theories woould probably increase the pressure to overcome her “fear”.

          • Sanchioso

            Totally agree with past history, opportunity…but his connection to Judge Fox helped when the Judge prevented the defense fron pursuing other suspects.

          • JB

            Avery’s DNA was found on the hood latch but I have yet to read it was specifically determined that it was in fact DNA from Avery’s sweat. The DNA found there has only been determined that it wasn’t from blood. It could have been snot, tears, spit and a number of bodily fluids including sweat. The question is who put it there? Maybe it was Avery or maybe it was the police? It could have been as simple as collecting a kleenex Avery used to help frame him. And if it is in fact determined that it is DNA from Avery’s sweat, collecting dirty laundry could potentially do it, could it not? Regardless of what, when, how, or even who did the DNA collection. IT ALL WENT BACK TO THE SAME LAB for testing. And we already know that lab has contamination problems, has serious credibility issues, and also has close ties to M. County Sheriffs. So why is it hard to believe that evidence from the scene was later tampered with back at the lab. This way you don’t need all these police involved in a conspiracy, all you need is one Lab Supervisor, who is worried about her job, and pressured by detectives to find “certain” results. Everything comes back to reasonable doubt.

          • Angela

            He admits to seeing Teresa on day of disappearance. Maybe she was having car issues before she left and he agreed to look under the hood. It’s circumstantial evidence

          • Susan Kendrick Stewart

            Why would he have lifted the hood of the car?

          • Criticallythinking

            Science is a funny thing. So is DNA extraction.

          • Brad Smith

            Uh, the cops, because they’re trained to look for it?

          • Michael Thomas Elchin

            Easy…take his hat,shirt ect.moisten it up a little bit and wipe it wherever .

          • Kaitain

            That’s what Kratz has said. Unfortunately for Kratz, there is actually no such thing as “sweat DNA”.

        • Kaitain

          > If you studied the case, i promise you, you would bot have the same opinion.

          This is rather lazy argumentation to say the least. Make your case here, briefly.

          • Laurie Anne

            They all do that, promise us if we knew all the facts we’d think Avery did it. But I’ve read all the facts, and I still don’t believe it. They don’t bother to post any “facts” because they’ve got nuthin’.

          • Kaitain

            It’s a truly bizarre case. I can’t think of any explanatory scenario that seems particularly plausible.

            It is always possible both that Avery killed Halbach AND that the cops planted the evidence because they felt they didn’t have a strong enough case for a conviction. This still leaves the question of motive, but maybe Avery was a very messed-up man with a bad temper, and something escalated in his meeting with Halbach (i.e. this was not premeditated).

            The other possibilities are:
            a) It was a pre-planned hit on Halbach by somebody in the sheriff’s dept with a follow-up framing. In some ways this is the simplest explanation, yet it’s also the one that seems the most outrageous and beyond the pale. But maybe it’s the correct one: one or two cops decided that killing an innocent woman was worth it given what was on the line.
            b) A third party killed Halbach, and in either a premeditated or an opportunistic manner, decided that Avery would be a great person upon whom to pin the blame, moving the bones accordingly. But this also seems to require that the police independently plant extra evidence to secure their conviction of Avery.
            c) Suicide. It is always possible that Halbach killed herself, was discovered by the police and they saw a golden opportunity. However, this explanation has to make a big appeal to coincidence, i.e. that Halbach kills herself shortly after visiting the property of Avery, whom the cops hate.

          • Doge

            Nah you watched a documentary/movie and read a few pro MAM articles online. Stop leading people on saying you “read all the facts”.
            You read everything from the trial? I doubt it

          • chad

            Ok “Doge”. OR, you are just making an incorrect assumption

          • Doge

            Regarding what exactly “Chad”?

          • Brad Smith

            Exactly, it’s just like the cops.

            TELL me the facts, please, instead of just telling me to read them and change my opinion.

          • chad

            “Just like the cops”? Are you basing and verbalizing your opinion of all police officers, based on the behavior a few? Sounds like a stereotype, and the problem with our society.
            You dont know me.

          • Bcrew

            No problem.
            Her body and effects burned 20 ft from his house, he purchased handcuffs and leg irons that the nephew claims they used on her, her car found on the property with his blood on it and sweat DNA on the hood latch which Brendan said he opened and removed a battery cord, his other nephew claiming he asked him to help get rid of the body, a bullet found in his garage that was forensically linked to his gun and had Halbach’s DNA on it, inmate testimony that he made plans for a rape/murder fantasy and torture chamber while in prison, her car key in his house, his nephews testimony, his lifelong criminal history including numerous sexual misconduct and rape allegations, his lack of alibi, her saying he was creepy and came out in a towel to meet her and she didn’t want to meet him again, he specifically asked to meet her and used his sisters name for the appointment, the use of the 67 number to his his identity when calling twice before she got ther and then no 67 number when calling her after he already had her which was his attempt at an alibi, and on and on. You have to completely disregard reality to believe he didn’t do this.

          • Sanchioso

            Some of the things you say are false or partial truths…

            the burn pit on the Avery’s property cannot get hot enough to burn a body to the degree of damage as the body parts were found in…, highly likely that body was burned somewhere else

            The leg irons and cuffs had ONLY the DNA of Avery and a females not belonging to TH.

            Why wouldn’t Avery just crush the car? The hood DNA could have been transfer DNA
            and obviously the blood evidence was shoddy at best. Transfer DNA and blood BUT NO FINGER PRINTS? ??

            The bullet in garage was not connected to Avery’s ..22, only fact was that it came from a .22.

            No evidence to support nephew confession.

            TH said he was creepy and didn’t want to meet him again. ..BUT she shows up to his property alone????

            I agree that Avery could have done it, but there are way too many holes and far from “any reasonable doubt”

            I also read somewhere that Avery has not once implicated himself in randomly reviewed conversations he’s had in prison after his incarceration…hmm mm.

          • Bcrew

            Her body and effects burned 20 ft from his house, he purchased handcuffs and leg irons that the nephew claims they used on her, her car found on the property with his blood on it and sweat DNA on the hood latch which Brendan said he opened and removed a battery cord, his other nephew claiming he asked him to help get rid of the body, a bullet found in his garage that was forensically linked to his gun and had Halbach’s DNA on it, inmate testimony that he made plans for a rape/murder fantasy and torture chamber while in prison, her car key in his house, his nephews testimony, his lifelong criminal history including numerous sexual misconduct and rape allegations, his lack of alibi, her saying he was creepy and came out in a towel to meet her and she didn’t want to meet him again, he specifically asked to meet her and used his sisters name for the appointment, the use of the 67 number to his his identity when calling twice before she got ther and then no 67 number when calling her after he already had her which was his attempt at an alibi, and on and on. You have to completely disregard reality to believe he didn’t do this.

          • chad

            Ok

          • Bcrew

            Her body and effects burned 20 ft from his house, he purchased handcuffs and leg irons that the nephew claims they used on her, her car found on the property with his blood on it and sweat DNA on the hood latch which Brendan said he opened and removed a battery cord, his other nephew claiming he asked him to help get rid of the body, a bullet found in his garage that was forensically linked to his gun and had Halbach’s DNA on it, inmate testimony that he made plans for a rape/murder fantasy and torture chamber while in prison, her car key in his house, his nephews testimony, his lifelong criminal history including numerous sexual misconduct and rape allegations, his lack of alibi, her saying he was creepy and came out in a towel to meet her and she didn’t want to meet him again, he specifically asked to meet her and used his sisters name for the appointment, the use of the 67 number to his his identity when calling twice before she got ther and then no 67 number when calling her after he already had her which was his attempt at an alibi, and on and on. You have to completely disregard reality to believe he didn’t do this.

            I’ll expect crazy conspiracy theory and wild speculative rant, as that’s all I have gotten from Avery supporters.

          • Kaitain

            The problem is that most of this is equally supportive of a framing/conspiracy explanation, and in many ways makes more sense given the weird lack of logic and consistency to the evidence pattern. Essentially you’re talking about a guy who is sufficiently smart and methodical to clean up all DNA traces in the cabin and garage, yet:

            1. Drives the victim’s car onto a spot on the edge of his lot, rather than crushing it, and leaves his blood all over it

            2. Leaves the victim’s car keys in his own bedroom – keys which, incidentally, have none of the victim’s DNA on them, and curiously also have no other keys, an unusual setup for anything other than a spare car key

            3. Burns the body mere yards from his own home

            4. Collects a small bullet fragment from whatever the killing site was and then drops it in his own garage

            5. Is daft enough to call a woman to his property on a business trip, then kill her there

            Avery is some kind of autistic savant: mentally retarded in many ways, yet capable of cleaning a crime scene meticulously.

            #5 is more problematic than people seem to think. Her car would need to have been visible on the property for several hours, and a gunshot would have been audible, unless he drove away with her, killed her elsewhere and then returned later, which was NOT the prosecution’s contention.

            > his nephews testimony

            A boy so naive and unintelligent that he was guided into telling the cops the story they wanted to hear so long as he could then go home, do his homework assignments and watch Wrestlemania

            > his other nephew claiming he asked him to help get rid of the body

            Which they had already testified was not in fact a request, but an off-the-cuff counter-joke in the first days when Halbach was missing and somebody joked to Avery that he’d killed her, given that he was the last to see her.

            > he specifically asked to meet her and used his sisters name for the appointment

            Because it was her car being sold. And Avery called her after she was late for the appointment, quite possibly hiding his number so she didn’t avoid the call out of embarrassment.

            It speaks volumes that the jury’s initial straw poll vote was for “not guilty” but that they were gradually worn down by a smaller group of pro-guilty voters.

            Is it possible that Avery murdered Halbach? Yes. Do I think it is probable, on balance? Hmm, no, I wouldn’t say so. He’s the strongest candidate, but that doesn’t make the hypothesis probable. Crucially, is Avery guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? Absolutely not.

          • Bcrew

            LOL only in looney land. To believe some of your wild speculation that has no evidence to support it, you have to suspend all disbelief. Claiming that Avery isn’t stupid enough to leave evidence is behind is not a defense. You have to believe that somehow the police planted evidence that they didn’t even have access to and that dozens of people are lying and involved in framing him. Only an incredibly gullible person who believes CSI is real and a propaganda Netflix film is the truth could believe such hogwash. Like I said I’ll get more denial and wild conspiracy theory with nothing to support it because it’s all Avery supporters have. Also: 4. The killing site was the garage.

          • Kaitain

            The killing site was the GARAGE? Are you serious?! Do you have any idea what happens when somebody is shot in the head? Blood, bone and brain tissue goes EVERYWHERE. The chance of Avery cleaning that up with his level of expertise, in the time available, is precisely zero.

            I’m not against the idea that Avery killed Halbach, but you’ll have to do a LOT better than that.

          • Bcrew

            Nothing you’ve said is serious. You’ve been watching to much CSI. There isn’t blood and matter flying everywhere. You’ve been bamboozled by a silly argument. You are convinced that he didn’t kill her. The evidence is just astounding. If it wasn’t for his previous false conviction and the Netflix propaganda, absolutely nobody would have the smallest doubt he’s guilty. You could see a video of him doing it and you’d still deny it. No rational person could believe what you do. You haven’t even addressed virtually any of the evidence.

          • Kaitain

            > You are convinced that he didn’t kill her.

            I’m not remotely convinced he didn’t kill her. He still seems like the best suspect, but that isn’t saying much. It seems very unlikely that he killed her in the garage if he did kill her.

            I think it’s possible that Avery killed her but the cops didn’t think they had a strong enough case so planted extra evidence. It’s also possible that somebody else on the Avery property killed her and was happy to let Steven take the rap for it. I mean, why is that latter hypothesis one that shouldn’t be investigated? This is the problem; right from the start the cops had tunnel vision in their investigation. And some of the evidence seems more congruent with a framing hypothesis than with a straightforward narrative in which all the evidence comes from Avery’s own actions.

            Of note: it is possible for the police to frame X even in a case where X actually did the crime.

            > No rational person could believe what you do.

            They can, and they do. You’re being completely egocentric: “What i believe must be true! Only a fool would believe things that I don’t believe!” You also get very angry when people question your analysis of events, which ties into my analysis of your personality type. You like to lock on to a hypothesis early and stick with it. Any debate just entrenches your position, because you have intertwined your ego with your prediction. At no point are you open to having your mind changed.

            You are also the kind of person who is likely to have a very clear-cut notion of “good and evil”, and enjoy the idea of evil people being punished as harshly as possible. (Of note: you don’t just wish to see justice; you actively enjoy the idea of people suffering if you believe them to be guilty.) In addition, you have no interest in the idea of rehabilitation, and think that people who try to understand criminals or to defend even morally dubious characters against corruption are essentially weak-willed liberals.

            Sound about right?

          • Bcrew

            You have proven repeatedly with your denial of reality that you think he’s innocent. They did investigate other family members. All the evidence pointed directly to the guilty party -Steven Avery. There is no believable way they could have framed him or planted all that evidence. It doesn’t make sense. They don’t. The people believing in his innocence are irrational and easily duped. They also often have a political agenda, just as the filmmakers did. You’re the one angry and you’re the one with an ego. Your projection is epic. I presented facts and you have no response. You got all worked up that I called you on it. You don’t wish to see justice. I wish to see justice for Terrsa and to keep others safe from Avery. All that was more deflection from the fact that you have nothing. No facts. Nothing supporting you. Nice try. Still waiting.

          • Kaitain

            > you think he’s innocent.

            No. I believe that he is not “guilty beyond a reasonable doubt”. This is not the same thing as believing him to be innocent, notwithstanding the de facto classification as such coming from a presumption of innocence. (In effect there is a law of the excluded middle in play.)

          • Bcrew

            Which is ludicrous and baseless as you proved here with your complete inability to defend your argument. Topped off by the fact that you didn’t even know you could get DNA from sweat. You’ll believe anything. Liberalism at its finest. The kool aid drinking mentality.

          • Kaitain

            > Topped off by the fact that you didn’t even know you could get DNA from sweat.

            The claim is not that there is no sweat in DNA. The claim is that one cannot identify nucleated DNA as having come specifically from sweat.

          • Bcrew

            Nope. Not what you said. Nice try. Non-blood DNA on the hood latch of the car. Another fact you have no response to.

          • Kaitain

            There is no category of DNA called “sweat DNA”. Kratz wants you to believe that they know the DNA was from sweat, because it forms a specific mental image that will easily mislead: it’s standard legerdemain for the gullible. He has absolutely no reason to conclude that it was from sweat.

          • Bcrew

            Not what you said. You clearly were claiming you can’t get DNA from sweat. You knew what he meant. Nice try. Hehehehehe. The guy who believes a propaganda tv shoe talks about being mislead. The term does no such thing. It was used to show it was non-blood DNA. They don’t classify DNA like that genius. Stop wasting my time. Come back when you have an actual point and evidence to present, not denial, crazy conspiracy, and wild speculation.

          • Kaitain

            No, I said, “There’s no such thing as ‘sweat DNA'”, and that is correct. Kratz uses the phrase to suggest that there is a category of DNA called ‘sweat DNA’. There isn’t. I’m sorry that you can’t understand this, but I have to say I’m not especially surprised.

            Let me try to explain this to you so you might understand.

            Imagine that a man who owns a Porsche is accused of a crime. The prosecution lawyer says that the police found gasoline at the crime scene which is “Porsche gasoline”. Somebody points out that there is no such thing as “Porsche gasoline”. The lawyer says, “Of course there is! All Porsches run on gasoline!” Bcrew nods and grins like an idiot, then accuses the dissenter of claiming that Porsches do not have gasoline.

            The lawyer is either being disingenuous or does not understand basic predicate logic. In the case of Bcrew, it’s almost certainly the latter.

          • Bcrew

            I just can’t stop laughing. Nice try. There is no such thing as blood DNA or any type of DNA, it’s just DNA. You didn’t know what you’re talking about and know backtracking. It’s hilarious. Keats did no such thing. He called it that because the crazy conspiracy theorists said the blood was planted, so he wanted to show this was non-blood DNA and they believed it was from sweat. Epic fail bro. Try again. Actually don’t. I told you don’t waste my time until you can present actual evidence. You have yet to give any.

          • Kaitain

            > LOL only in looney land.

            Do you know what an ad hominem argument is? Here’s one for you: ‘only childish buffoons use the expression “LOL” in a debate’.

            > Claiming that Avery isn’t stupid enough to leave evidence is behind is not a defense.

            I agree. However, that wasn’t my argument. My argument is that the prosecution case relies on Avery being both very stupid AND incredibly smart/capable (at cleaning up most of the DNA evidence), simultaneously. Understand the difference? One is an argument over a matter of fact. The other is a reductio ad absurdum argument: if proposition X entails a contradiction, X must be false.

            > You have to believe that somehow the police planted evidence that they didn’t even have access to

            To which evidence did they not have access?

            > and that dozens of people are lying and involved in framing him.

            That isn’t required at all. You need only one or two people willing to plant evidence, and others who were not complicit in the planting but all too happy to embrace it as real evidence because of a willingness to secure a conviction, especially one of a man disliked strongly by the sheriff’s dept and the judiciary.

          • Bcrew

            That is your argument. What you describe could only be believed in looney land. Sorry the truth hurts. There is no debate. You have absolutely nothing but crazy conspiracy theory with nothing to support it and denial. Did they have access to his sweat? Bullets from his gun with her DNA on it? So both nephews were lying? Convicts were lying? Police officers were lying? Two officers planted a car with blood and sweat DNA? Her remains and her personal items in his fire pit? Her car key in his house? The bullet in the garage? Numerous officers found all this evidence. It’s simply laughable. You believe a propaganda tv show and pure fairytales not evidence. It doesn’t take much to clean up but leave evidence behind. Avery is not the sharpest tool. Assuming there would be more is not evidence or even rational. He’s guilty as sin.

          • Kaitain

            > Did they have access to his sweat?

            Kratz said the DNA was “sweat DNA”, but there is no such thing as “sweat DNA”. It’s something he made up.

            > Bullets from his gun with her DNA on it?

            All they had to do was take a round fired from his gun and apply some of her DNA to it, which they had from the other forensic materials. Do you not see the fundamental problem that if you cannot trust the integrity of the sheriff’s department, the usual guarantees that you are assuming are in effect no longer apply?

            > Numerous officers found all this evidence. It’s simply laughable.

            Let me just alter that for you, and then we’ll agree:

            Two officers found all this ‘evidence’. It’s simply laughable.

            > It doesn’t take much to clean up but leave evidence behind.

            Oh, is that right? Perhaps you should write up your new theory on how to leave a crime scene spotless yet leave all the rest of your clutter untouched, and weirdly leave your own DNA all over the place but nobody else’s. You can also explain how to own a key for years, leave none of your DNA on it, but leave somebody else’s on it.

            > There is no debate.

            Of course there’s a debate. We’re having it. I can understand if you don’t wish to engage in it, though, because you probably know your arguments won’t stand up to cursory scrutiny. Your writing shows the twin hallmarks of cowardice and anger. You want to walk away and declare yourself the winner, because you don’t have enough faith in yourself to actually win.

          • Scott Henry

            Love this comment!

          • Bcrew

            5. He hid his identity when meeting her. They shot guns on the property all the time.
            6. He said no such thing. He said he thought he was joking.
            Why did he use 67 to hide his identity?
            The initial straw poll was not for not guilty.
            You have not responded to over half the evidence I presented. Denial and crazy conspiracy with no evidence is all you have. You are delusional if you think he didn’t do it. TV isn’t real
            Bro.

          • Kaitain

            > He hid his identity when meeting her.

            Do you mean he concealed his number? I already covered this. Did you miss it?

            “And Avery called her after she was late for the appointment, quite possibly hiding his number so she didn’t avoid the call out of embarrassment.”

            > He said no such thing. He said he thought he was joking.

            Yes, and..?

            > The initial straw poll was not for not guilty.

            To clarify, not unanimously, but a majority voted “not guilty”.

            > You are delusional if you think he didn’t do it.

            How can I compete in the face of such a compelling argument? Oh, wait, here’s one for you:
            “Anyone who think Avery is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is both exceptionally stupid, ugly and stinky”.

            In the adult world, you have to construct real arguments rather than just call people names, my little chum.

          • Bcrew

            LOL. Absolutely hilarious. You make up your own fantasy with absolutely nothing to support it. There is no evidence to support that. He called twice to hide that it was him calling and called the third time once he already had her and didn’t use the 67 to try to establish an alibi. Yes and you were factually incorrect. He asked his nephew to help get rid of the body. No the majority did not vote not guilty. This is a claim made by one dismissed juror. It doesn’t make it fact. Secondly, it’s irrelevant. All 12 found him guilty. You can’t compete in the face of my argument. All you’ve done is deny, give crazy conspiracy theories with no evidence to support it, and say you think something is likely. Laughable. I gave all the evidence and you’ve addressed virtually none of it. My response is all your post is worth. I’ve constructed real arguments, you certainly have not. You’re attempting to deflect from that fact. I think, maybe, denial, and conspiracy are not evidence or adult arguments. Your projection is epic.

          • Kaitain

            > He called twice to hide that it was him calling and called the third time once he already had her and didn’t use the 67 to try to establish an alibi.

            Sorry, are you actually Kratz? because all you do is parrot his speculations as though they were established fact.

            > This is a claim made by one dismissed juror. It doesn’t make it fact.

            Yes, I realize that everything claimed by the prosecution is FACT whereas anything said against it is mere rumor and hearsay.

            > Your projection is epic.

            You do seem very angry! 🙂 I’m not surprised; I’ve addressed all your best arguments and dismantled them all, easily.

          • Bcrew

            1. LOL. The response of someone with no argument. Sorry that you can’t respond to the facts. You haven’t given ONE fact. Everything you’ve posted is speculation.
            2. Nice strawman argument to deflect from the fact that you stated something as fact that isn’t.
            3. Again LOL. You haven’t addressed any of my facts or arguments. You’ve dismantled your own argument. You have nothing but denial, wild speculation, and conspiracy. That’s not evidence or an argument. No wonder you’re so angry and attempting to deflect yet again by projecting that I am. I’m laughing at all of you naive and gullible conspiracy theorists who think a propaganda tv show is truth.

          • Kaitain

            > 1. LOL = The response of someone with no argument.

            Yes, that’s what I’m trying to explain to you.

            > 2. you stated something as fact that isn’t

            False! My statement was correct.

            > 3. Again LOL.

            See above.

            > You have nothing but denial, wild speculation, and conspiracy.

            Truly you have a dizzying intellect.

            > No wonder you’re so angry and attempting to deflect yet again by projecting that I am.

            As an aside, I read all your posts in the voice of an excitable hillbilly wearing a string vest. Is that image accurate, or do you wear something over the top of the vest?

          • Bcrew

            1. That you have no argument?
            2. Nope. One person’s statement isn’t fact. I guess you agree he’s guilty then? Brendan said he was.
            3. Yes. Facts are dizzying to someone who doesn’t have any and who with they just don’t agree with.
            4. Hehehehehe
            Thanks for proving my point. Angry and unintelligent, a dangerous combination. Still waiting on an actual response to the evidence or even a shred of actual evidence supporting you. You showed how informed you are with the sweat lie.

          • Kaitain

            No, that people who post “LOL” have no argument, in general. Either they’re 14 years old, in which case their faculties are not properly developed, or they are low IQ adults.

            > Facts are dizzying to someone who doesn’t have any and who with they just don’t agree with.

            A sentence worthy of Caitlin Upton.

            Where is the evidence for the “sweat DNA”? Post a link.

          • Kaitain

            Incidentally, just because I like to keep demographic information on Disqus readers:
            1. Where is the local polling station at which you vote Republican?
            2. Of which Christian church are you a member?
            3. On a personal level, how do you reconcile your love of authority, of the police and of the military with your hatred of government?
            Advanced question:
            4. Which Ayn Rand book do you most admire?

          • Bcrew

            LOL. Thanks for playin. A low info Obama supporter. Who would have guessed. No response to the swear thing, eh? Hilarious

          • Kaitain

            I’m right, aren’t I? 🙂 I love you guys – not all Christians or all Republicans, by the way, but a weird, angry subset of them – although in truth there is no real point in debating with you. It’s really just for my own amusement, and out of a sense of fascination. No actual information will be exchanged in either direction, although it’s always fun to see a cautionary example in the wild.

            btw I’m not actually convinced that people like you are Christian at all. Most of what you say bears little resemblance to the teachings of Christ, with his emphasis on compassion, generosity of spirit and forgiveness. I’ll bet you far prefer the Old Testament to the New, and if you’re forced to quote the words of that pinko hippy Jesus, you’ll go for John rather than the synoptic gospels.

          • Bcrew

            You know someone has lost and has absolutely no argument when they start getting into such nonsense. Nice attempt at deflection and yes there is no point at debating as the facts clearly aren’t on your side. You’ve proven that I’m right throughout this exchange.

          • Kaitain

            Ha ha. I do enjoy being right. Bye bye!

          • Bcrew

            You must be depressed tonight. You never were.

          • Kaitain

            I never was depressed? On the contrary, people like you depress me, because you’re allowed to vote and serve on juries. Still, I can’t support the notion of an elitist oligarchy, even if in the short term it would benefit me and disenfranchise you.

          • Bcrew

            If you enjoy being right, you should be. People who give facts that you can’t respond to should depress you. Your certainly are an liberal elitist but that in no way could ever benefit you.

          • Kaitain

            No, just an elite liberal. (Polishes top hat.) Don’t confuse the two. 😉

          • Bcrew

            I had it right the first time. You’re the one confused.

          • Kaitain

            Hee hee! 🙂

          • Bcrew

            Wow you’ve been reduced to a babbling fool. Pathetic

          • Jfrn

            You have NO facts. Do you realize how ridiculous you look? You keep repeating like a parrot, words of other people, like a puppet, and when your argument is called out, with argument and supporting evidence, your reply is always the same. “No one can rebut my argument. My argument is facts, blah blah, yet you don’t explain away anything they provided against what you say. The only thing you are doing is, basically, copying and pasting what the prosecution said, what we already know, what we have already argued, backed up with reason and evidence. You can’t argue the reason and evidence provided back to you. So instead of just repeating the same copy and paste, because we already know of it, make rebuttal to our reasoning and evidence we have provided.

          • Bcrew

            I know how ridiculous you look defending a sicko predator who murdered a young woman based on a propaganda tv show. You’ve provided no evidence. None. You have no ability to reason and no evidence. Just crazy conspiracy theory. Stop drinking the kool aid.

          • Jfrn

            I provided an argument to each of your pasted items. Not to mention, the FACT that both blood tests were incomplete, BOTH. “Sweat” DNA does NOT exist. You have obviously failed to do your research. Nice try, though.
            I thought you might be a troll at first. Turns out, you really are just that ignorant. Pretty daring of you to deny science and the fact that something doesn’t exist. Astonishing.

          • Bcrew

            No they were not. It’s a lie and you can’t support it.

          • Rita

            You are the only idiotic parrot on this site!

          • Bcrew

            Thanks for further proving my point.

          • Elizabeth St Bernard

            I couldn’t agree more, Bcrew is a parrot…LOL. He keeps bringing up “facts” like Brendan said he did it. Brendan who was told what to say by non stop harassing the poor boy. His facts are a misconception of the truth based on what the local police, Sheriff and prosecuting attorney are story telling. The actual facts do not prove without a shadow of a doubt that Steven Avery or his nephew are guilty. I have posted my reasons why above.

          • Jfrn

            I’m not sure what bcrew considers facts, or even an argument to support such facts. Clearly delusional. I can repeat the evidence with no supporting argument, too, over and over again, however, I am smart enough to research before making ignorant statements. The “sweat” DNA is enough to show they are completely uniformed. Pretty pathetic and exhausting. If you dare to become increasingly annoyed but their “facts” and “evidence”, you will probably come away wondering if someone could really be so blinded and delusional. 😩😁

          • Jfrn

            Ahh! Just because one moron thinks he is guilty, and refuses to see the facts….and he is Christian and republican, doesn’t mean all of us right winged Christians feel the same. I’m both of those and I absolutely agree with your arguments….except this one 😁

          • Kaitain

            Conceded. I do know quite a few right wingers and Christians who are no fools. However, I have to say there is a curious correlation that seems to run in one direction only. If I know that somebody is a Republican Christian, I won’t be able to predict with confidence how they feel about this case. However, if I see somebody who is absolutely cock-sure of Avery’s guilt, treats him as contemptible scum and dismisses everyone else’s opinion on the matter, there seems to be a very good chance that the person in question will be a right wing theist. I have no strong hypothesis as to why this is the case.

            It seems to me that the Republican party has become an odd confederation of people who don’t actually share an awful lot in common in terms of their politics. The libertarian wing, for instance, tends to be intelligent and principled, and I respect them even if I think they would be wrong in practice. Fiscal conservatives ditto. But there is this weird fringe group that seems to have made its home in the Republican party that appears to love the idea of punishing others (criminals? foreigners? immigrants?) more than anything else and which treats empathy as gullibility, and careful deliberation as dithering weakness. It has a hateful, vengeful streak that bears little resemblance to the party of Eisenhower, Ford or George H W Bush.

          • Jfrn

            Great answer! I’m embarrassed that this bcrew claims stock in both of these affiliations. My guess is that they are clueless when it comes to politics, religion, history, and sadly, ethics. Idiocy is normally found in those of lower education and unable to think outside the box

            In any case, it is frightening to see this (people like bcrew) is what is being produced in this nation.

          • Bcrew

            LOL you seem not to realize that leftist fringe conspiracy nuts who love and trust big government but hypocritically hate the police and love vicious criminals, are the only ones thinking this guy might not have done it. Delusional. Typical liberalism, defend the psychopath while not caring less about the innocent young woman who was brutally murdered. Liberals live in an upside down universe.

          • Kaitain

            Hey, it’s that little redneck kid again!

          • Jfrn

            “LOL. Absolutely hilarious. You make up your own fantasy with absolutely nothing to support it. There is no evidence to support that. He called twice to hide that it was him calling and called the third time once he already had her and didn’t use the 67 to try to establish an alibi”

            I’d like to hear why you think this is a worthy argument. All you have done is shown speculation. That’s it. No facts, no supporting evidence that this was what he was thinking. All speculation.

            I am not understanding how you refuse to see your own words as conspired.

          • Bcrew

            As I said, you have nothing but denial. No response to the evidence I presented. You picked the phone calls out of all the evidence and say I have nothing but speculation. Really? What a joke. Please explain why he called Teresa twice using 67 in a short time span on the day of the murder and then not again without it hours later, after normal hours? That’s all you have. Thanks for proving my point. You believe a propaganda tv show and crazy conspiracy theories and talk about fantasy. Comical

          • Jfrn

            No response to the evidence, or lack there of, you presented? Can you not read? It’s about 5 paragraphs long and covered each one of your arguments, you fool.

          • Bcrew

            I could do another point by point rebuttal but it’s a waste of time. Some of what you posted is simply false and all of it is based in a propaganda tv show. To believe what you say, you would have to believe that:
            1. The police planted her car and his blood on it.
            2. The police planted her car key with his DNA on it.
            3. His nephews testimony was false even though it matched forensic evidence.
            4. His other nephew lied.
            5. Someone planted her remains and effects in his fire pit and burn barrel all 20 ft from his house and he didn’t know about it.
            6. They planted a bullet from his gun with her DNA on it in his garage.
            7. The FBI wsnts an innocent man convicted and are wrong.
            8. All the other circumstantial evidence and his past history is
            coincidence.
            9. Inmates lied for no reason.
            And on and on. You have a better chance of winning the Powerball for all this to be true. It’s beyond laughable. And no, no evidence was shown to support any of this. You are in denial.

          • Jfrn

            It’s science, buddy. I don’t have prove anything for it to be true. I guess science is a theory of lies in orde for you to be correct. Keep on with eyes wide shut. It makes no impact on me how ignorant you are.

          • Bcrew

            You don’t know what science is. The science unequivocally proves him guilty. What ifs and crazy conspiracy theory is not science. “I don’t have prove anything for it to be true.” That sums up your worthless argument. Wow. You’ll believe anything. Your projection continues to be epic.

          • Jfrn

            I work in science, idiot. Try again. You’re worthless and too stupid to talk to. You truly are one of the most ignorant people I have ever seen. I’m not debating with you simply due to your failure to make any sense. Regardless of what you think, if that’s even a possibility, I simply cannot lower my intelligence to fit yours. Continue to make a fool of yourself. I’m sure it won’t be the last time. Perhaps you should argue with Brenden. He may buy it.

          • Bcrew

            Sure you do. You proved here you know nothing about it. The insults and anger again prove the total worthlessness of your blindly followed argument. You’re not debating. You have nothing to offer to a debate. You can’t respond to anything I’ve said. The only one “buying” it is you, buying a propaganda tv show. Your posts show you know absolutely nothing of what you’re talking about. Only far left liberal conspiracy nuts can be so blind.

          • Jfrn

            Ok, buddy. By the way, I’m a righty.

          • Bcrew

            LOL. Nope. Why are you afraid to admit you’re a liberal?

          • Jfrn

            I forgot. You’re all knowing. Even where my political stance lies.

          • Bcrew

            Don’t see how someone who is as brainwashed as you could be a conservative. Your comments don’t support it. I doubt you even know what conservatives believe. If you are, shame on you, you’re a horrible representation for conservatives.

          • Jfrn

            You just fail to believe you are wrong. There is no helping that. Maybe you should seek professional help.
            You sound as though you may be the brother. Just a guess.

          • Jfrn

            Scientist Chad Steele had to say about the blood evidence used in the Steven Avery trial:
            I have recently watched the documentary series, “Making a Murderer.” I know that everyone has thoughts and opinions after watching this, and I am no different. However, I would just like to share some facts about a few pieces of evidence, and the fault in how they were used. My current profession revolves around making sure scientific tests measure exactly what they are supposed to measure and do so in a consistent, reliable way. It is in this spirit, that I feel like I am allowed to weigh in on the “DNA bullet” and the EDTA detection.
            When these tests are developed, there are controls put into place that ensure the test was run correctly. These controls are usually of a positive and negative variety: the positive control will have a known substance or quantity that will produce a result that falls within a specific range and the negative control will produce no result (a zero, nothing detected, etc.). In order to be able to produce results that can be labeled “scientifically valid,” the test must contain controls. If something comes up in the negative control, it is an invalid test. If the positive control produces a result that is abnormal or out of range, it is an invalid test. An invalid test means, in effect, that there are NO ACTUAL TEST RESULTS. In regards to whatever sample you were testing, in that specific test, there are no results. This prevents reporting of tainted, skewed, and erroneous results.
            While DNA testing the bullet, the technician performing the test found that some of her own DNA got into the negative control. Because the negative control was no longer negative, it was an invalid test. Because she used the entire sample, she decided to submit a deviation, so the results from the sample could be used despite an invalid test. This is extremely poor science at best, and at worst…well, planting evidence and bias doesn’t need to be mentioned any more than it already has. Even mentioning that the bullet had the victim’s DNA on it is a lie. It was based on an invalid test. Scientists NEVER draw conclusions from an invalid test. The fact that she did not save any sample to be tested again is not the defendant’s fault. It is an error. This situation should have been deemed “inconclusive” or “no test” and, thus, there is no test result that became evidence.
            Detecting EDTA from a blood swab sample sounds fairly straightforward. However, without having a documented limit of detection, no scientist can accept what the test can and can’t do. If one does not know what a test can and cannot do, he or she cannot use that test to draw any conclusions. Let’s discuss the “limit of detection.” Imagine one particle of flu virus lands on your arm. There is no person in their right mind that would knowingly be able to feel it land on his or her arm. On the other hand, everyone would be able to feel a brick land on their arm. There is a “limit of detection” that the human sense of touch inherently has.
            In regards to the documentary, the test showed that no EDTA was detectable in the blood swabs. Without a limit of detection, this information means nothing, absolutely nothing. It is possible that the test could only detect EDTA if EDTA composed at least 50% of the sample. The amount of EDTA in blood tubes is miniscule, almost negligible compared to the amount of blood. We are talking about 7 milligrams of EDTA in a 4-mL blood tube. If 0.1 mL was taken out, it would, at most, contain 0.2 mg of EDTA. The blood was swabbed from the vehicle, and probably only 1/10 of the blood (0.01 mL of actual blood), thereby diluting it further. The swab used was also wetted with some sort of solvent, maybe 0.1 mL. Now, there’s only 0.002 mg of EDTA in the blood swab. The swab most likely was diluted further for test purposes, probably taking the swab and re-suspending into at least 1 mL of solution. Using my numbers, which are probably conservative, the test would have to be able to detect 0.0002 mg (0.2 µg) of EDTA in 1 mL of sample. Outside of the amount of EDTA present in a 4-mL blood tube, these numbers are hypothetical for illustrative purposes only.
            The testing that would have been required to scientifically validate this test would have required some time. After following standard validation procedures, I would have taken blood from an EDTA vial (any blood) and put it onto a vehicle surface. After the blood was completely dry, I would have used the same blood swabbing and collection procedure used during the investigation, and then tested that sample. This would be a positive control, since the technician would know that there was EDTA in that sample. Does the newly-developed test detect the EDTA? If so, repeat it at least 10 times, and you have a strong scientific ground to make the statement that there was no EDTA present in the blood from the vehicle. If the test does not detect EDTA from the experiment above, one cannot make any mention about the presence or absence of EDTA in the blood swabs from the vehicle because the test could not detect EDTA amounts that small.
            I do not know all of the work that went into developing the EDTA detection test. However, using the results and drawing a conclusion based on those results, without having a well-defined test with a limit of detection, is a LIE. I will not mention using the results from only 3 swabs to extrapolate results onto the untested swabs. That was just plain unethical, and I am glad a rebuttal witness for the defense made that clear.
            I have plenty of opinions about what I saw in the documentary, which I may share later. I just wanted to lay out some facts from the scientific field about what I saw. Based on what I have presented here, pretend the bullet had no trace of the victim, and pretend the blood swabs were never tested for the presence of EDTA. That is what should have been done.

          • Bcrew

            A worthless comment opinion piece from some nobody on a comment thread? Really? Ha you prove my point. You’ll believe anything.

          • Jfrn

            You’re an idiot. Nothing with scientific backing makes sense to you. Maybe you’re unable to comprehend anything of that intelligence. This is pointless with you. You deny your own words. You deny facts. You deny science. You deny evidence. You have no rebuttal to anything except that, per your opinion, is a lie or untrue. Debate what’s given to you instead of the same ole talking points you’ve stated over and over again. Yes we know what you think, as this has been your only debate tool, now refute the rebutted statements. Otherwise, you’re a complete joke and not worth my time or knowledge.

          • Bcrew

            You have no scientific backing and deny all real science in the case. Conspiracy theory isn’t science. Your insults prove the bankruptcy of your argument and prove my point about how you represent conservatives (which I still don’t believe you are.) Again your projection is epic. All you do is deny facts and give crazy conspiracy theory with nothing to support it. I destroyed the planted blood conspiracy. You just deny it. You haven’t rebutted anything. Nothing. You’ve proven who the joke is and who is not worth debating with. Give some evidence, not conspiracy. Still waiting.

          • Jfrn

            Ok. You have a degree in science? I’m assuming no. I have a degree in science, scientists testified in the trial that completely supports what I’ve said, so your ignorant argument does not fly. I’ve proven everything. You refuse to open your eyes. In all honesty, you’re exhausting because your education is extremely lacking. You can’t argue with an idiot. With that, you can believe you’re right. I know you are not, and frankly, I could care less what your opinion is. Thank God I don’t have to interact with you on a daily basis. That would require counseling.

          • Bcrew

            Sure you do. There is no science supporting g crazy conspiracies. A nurse came out today and said she poked a hole in the blood vial. There goes that conspiracy. Yes, I can’t argue with you. You’ll believe anything. You’ve proved nothing but that you don’t have a rational thought in your head.

          • Jfrn

            Oh yeah? So you believe nurses? Interesting. Your power points are exhausting.

          • Bcrew

            That makes no sense. So now the nurse is lying about what she did? Your ignorance is exhausting.

          • Jfrn

            So a scientist lies about their findings? Your irony is exhausting.

          • Bcrew

            That’s what you say. They testified Avery’s DNA was all over the place. You’re hilarious. Your ignorance is exhausting.

          • Jfrn

            Where in the world do your information? Of course his DNA is everywhere! He lived there, fool. However, please, with scientific evidence, prove that hers was everywhere. See the difference. Wow! Just wow!

          • Jfrn

            By the way, where did I say a scientist lies about their findings? I find this interesting since you’ve done nothing but try and disregard the scientific community. Are you delusional?

          • Jfrn

            I’m going to give you a quiz, since you seem to completely ignore the evidence presented to you.

            1) What is sweat DNA? How do you confirm sweat DNA?

            2) What testing must be done on blood sampling to detect an additive present or not present?

            3) What are test controls and why is it performed?

            4) What qualifies a sampling of blood as inconclusive?

            5) When human remains are found at a scene of a crime, which forensic specialists should be called in to examine, prior to any disturbance?

            6) Is it possible to plant DNA evidence at a crime scene?

            5) How long does it take to incinerate a body? And at what degree?

            6) What is the normal range of degree of a Bon fire?

            7) how possible is it to clean an entire crime scene of a victim’s blood after two gunshots to the head and slit of the throat?

            8) How easy is it to interrogate someone that may be innocent into a confession? With an IQ of 70?

          • Rita

            I am a nurse and yes she is !ying!!!! You are as dumb as they possibly come!!

          • Bcrew

            LOL everyone is lying but the lifelong violent criminal and convicted murderer. Hilarious. No wonder you believe a biased tv show is reality. And I’m dumb. Wow

          • Jfrn

            I’m still waiting on your answers. My guess is that the answers you found back up my argument, or you really do just read propaganda and copy and paste. Exactly what I’ve said from the beginning. No response necessary unless you are responding to each of the questions posed to you.

          • Bcrew

            I’ve given answers and you have no response. What are you talking about?

          • Jfrn

            The quiz. You totally neglected the quiz that requires you to give real answers, backed up, with sources.

          • Bcrew

            Are you insane? There has been no quiz and no sources. What are you talking about? All you did was give lies, denial, and crazy conspiracy that I destroyed and you had no response. Kept trying.

          • Jfrn

            Should I copy and paste it here so you can follow through? Give me a break. Do you honestly think I would ask you to do something I never put out there for you to do. Good grief.

            I’m going to give you a quiz, since you seem to completely ignore the evidence presented to you.

            1) What is sweat DNA? How do you confirm sweat DNA?

            2) What testing must be done on blood sampling to detect an additive present or not present?

            3) What are test controls and why is it performed?

            4) What qualifies a sampling of blood as inconclusive?

            5) When human remains are found at a scene of a crime, which forensic specialists should be called in to examine, prior to any disturbance?

            6) Is it possible to plant DNA evidence at a crime scene?

            7) How long does it take to incinerate a body? And at what degree?

            8) What is the normal range of degree of a Bon fire?

            9) how possible is it to clean an entire crime scene of a victim’s blood after two gunshots to the head and slit of the throat?

            10) How easy is it to interrogate someone that may be innocent into a confession? With an IQ of 70?

          • Bcrew

            Sure. And I’ll copy and paste my response that destroyed it. You never responded to even half of my original points. Should I copy and paste those? The questions you asked are itrelevant. I’m not an expert on many of those questions and neither are you. You are trying to deflect from your inability to respond to the facts of the case. Stick to the evidence. Wild speculation and could be is not evidence. Laughable. Keep trying. If you have a specific question related to the evidence, I’ll be glad to again destroy it, good luck.

          • Jfrn

            Nope. You never did. You skirted around each argument by repeating the same thing over and over again without any explanation. So, skirt again or answer the questions. The only thing you continue to do is repeat the evidence against him. I respond with why those things are tainted and not real evidence. You refuse to believe science and ethics, so now I’m telling you to dispute the the evidence with reasons to why you seem to think is slam dunk, ignoring scientific reasoning.

          • Bcrew

            Nope. Stick to the facts. I’m not answering irrelevant, hypothetical questions. The facts of the case don’t support you. You still haven’t replied to even half of my evidence points and just deflected with irrelevant nonsense and conspiracy theory with nothing to support it. You’re the one skirting and you have no science supporting you. As for reason, I can’t stop laughing. You believe in a propaganda tv show and crazy conspiracies with no evidence to support them. Ya that’s reasonable. And accusing people of things with zero to support it is very ethical. You live in opposite world. Wow

          • Jfrn

            You are foolish. Try starting on the fbi webpage. Look up quality assurance test controls. You can also look up quality assurance for forensic DNA testing labs, which is resourced by the fbi website.
            Information on DNA testing and procedures are in both locations. I’ve already done the research for you. I dare you to come back with the same claim that the DNA testing done in this case was done accurately and call me ignorant for saying it was not, due to failure of test controls performed and an established threshold of detection. If you dare, then I I will know, with certainty, that you are completely delusional.

          • Bcrew

            Again with vague nonsense. Give specifics of this case or get lost and stop wasting my time. You can’t do you deflect with vague hypothetical nonsense. You have nothing. The delusional one is you. You can’t demonstrate anything as it applies to this case. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

          • Jfrn

            It is specific to the case. You’re the biggest idiot to walk this earth. Deny if you want, I’ve proven my DNA argument, you refuse to recognize it.
            However, I am now copying all of your arguments and pasting all of my answers given to you already. Once I’m done with that, don’t bother responding to me, preferably, if I were you, I would stay clear of any public forum, to avoid showing your ignorance any further. Seriously. You need help

          • Bcrew

            You’ve proven nothing. No specifics to the case. Directly refute evidence with specifics. You can’t. Calling me an idiot yet again deflects from you inability to do so and ignorance. Thanks for proving I destroyed you. You gave up. Game, set, match. You can’t give any specifics or refute anything. Take your own advice. Pointless rants and namecalling are your specialty. You’re an embarrassment.

          • Jfrn

            2 days ago
            YOU
            “Her body and effects burned 20 ft from his house,”
            ME

            Her bones were found in different locations, and by expert testimony, unable to determine if that was the original burn site. Anthropologists were not the first to examine the remains. They had been disturbed prior to them being allowed to do their forensic investigation. This is not protocol.

            YOU
            “he purchased handcuffs and leg irons that the nephew claims they used on her,”
            ME
            o what he bought leg irons and handcuffs several weeks prior? That doesn’t make someone a murderer. DNA on those particular items showed his DNA, another unidentified DNA, but NO DNA of TH.
            Have seen the headboard to the bed this act was supposedly committed in? Unless her arm’s length is comparable to gumby, this is not plausible. No markings on headboard found that would be equivalent to someone being tortured and fighting for their life.

            YOU
            “her car found on the property with his blood on it ”

            ME
            The blood DNA found in the car should have never been admitted due to improper testing. I’ve explained this numerous times, so I’ll just give you the short version. All testing of blood sampling has to have test controls done before any determination can be made. Fact. By doing these controls, one is able to find the threshold of detection. Because no threshold of detection is determined, one cannot determine if EDTA is or is not in a sample. Also, the blood sample would have had to refrigerated for the EDTA to remain in the tube for this amount of time, which, it was not.

            YOU
            “and sweat DNA on the hood latch”

            ME
            There is no such thing as “sweat” DNA. Look it up.

            YOU
            “a bullet found in his garage that was forensically linked to his gun and had Halbach’s DNA on it, ”

            ME
            The bullet DNA testing should’ve been thrown out as well, due to their own protocol, and the protocol of every sampling lab. If a sample is contaminated, it is deemed inconclusive. Period.
            No blood found in the garage, except by luminal, however, this proves nothing. Supposedly cleaned by bleach? Yet blood of an animal was detected. If they are unable to provide evidence that this was her blood, then it’s not a true finding of evidence.
            Let me add, ballistics on that bullet only proved it was shot with a .22, however, they were not able to confirm it came from his gun in particular.

            YOU
            “inmate testimony that he made plans for a rape/murder fantasy and torture chamber while in prison,”

            ME

            Allegations, are just that, allegations. Does not prove anything.
            There was no prisoner that testified, however, the say one made a statement. Here’s my question. So you’re going to believe a criminal, yet refuse to believe Avery may be innocent. Contradictory, don’t you think? Where are these prisoners? Where is the drawing? It’s not evidence if it doesn’t exist.

            YOU
            “her car key in his house,”

            ME
            They key found was found days after that place had been methodically searched. The officer for the county supervising the conflict of interest detectives admits that he saw Lenk bend over by the bookcase, walk out of the room, walk back in, and find the key. He stated this act alone was suspicious.

            YOU
            “his nephews testimony, ”

            ME
            Which was done unethically. The only consistent statements he made, verbatim, is the original story he told, which does not suggest any crime committed.
            Hence; reference my question on the ease of producing a confession from an innocent suspect using the methods they used. The method used has been speculated about for years.

            YOU
            “his lifelong criminal history including numerous sexual misconduct and rape allegations, his lack of alibi, her saying he was creepy and came out in a towel to meet her and she didn’t want to meet him again, he specifically asked to meet her and used his sisters name for the appointment, the use of the 67 number to his his identity when calling twice before she got ther and then no 67 number when calling her after he already had her which was his attempt at an alibi, and on and on. ”

            ME
            Lifelong criminal history? Funny, as he spent 18 years of his life behind bars for the rape allegation he didn’t commit. He was 25 when he was wrongly convicted of rape
            What lifelong criminal history are you referring to?
            Let me also ask, in the two years he was exonerated to the time was charged again, what criminal acts did he commit then?

            Next:
            Here’s another question for you, if TH told Autotrader how fearful she was of Avery, and if that is truly the case, I’m sure she told others, i.e. Friends, family, roommate, about her fear, especially knowing that is where she was headed, then why in the world didnt someone, in particular Auto-trader, not report her missing? Here she was going to a place of a man she was “so called” fearful of, yet not one single person followed up with her after to make sure she was ok? Not reported missing for two days? Do you not that extremely odd?

            Also, the *67 calls are almost a ridiculous argument. So what if he did that? Was he not planning on her answering? What’s the point in calling if you know they are not going to answer? My guess is, he planned on her answering, therefore, not hiding who he was. To determine this was, in fact, the reasons for his calls, as you say, there is no proof of that being the reason. It is ONLY speculation.

            There you have it. Everything was addressed, as I said, and you said I ignored your argument and gave no answer to them. This, again, proves you are delusional.

          • Jfrn

            Hypotheticals? Yes, you are delusional. You know you’re wrong and unwilling to do the research, that would be claims of evidence, if true, would support your case. However, you won’t because your arguments will be shot down. Call it what you want. These are all apart of the evidence by the prosecution.

          • Bcrew

            Hypotheticals. How hot does a fire have to be to burn something is a hypothetical. Can someone plant something is a hypothetical. Your welcome for the free education. Stick to the actual facts of the case. You can’t. You have no facts to support you. You know you’re wrong. I have researched the actual facts of the case and know I’m right. He did it. You’ve failed epically to shoot my facts down. Still waiting. None of what you posted was part of any evidence. Give actual specific evidence for the case or get lost. I won’t hold my breathe, I know you have none.

          • Jfrn

            Yet you continue to deny I’ve given, not only an argument to each, I’ve also referenced, in particular, the DNA testing you say I’m completely wrong about. REFERENCED BY THE FBI.

          • Bcrew

            You’ve given nothing. No specifics to the case. The DNA evidence was allowed in the trial and on appeal. Just admit you’re wrong.

          • Jfrn

            Look again. Please do not spew your garbage anymore. I am right, you are wrong. I’ve given resources, I’ve backed up what you claim I didn’t answer, wrong and wrong. You are a waste of time. You refuse to even see the evidence referenced, BY THE FBI! You need to just stop. Stop with your delusions.

          • Bcrew

            LOL so you have nothing. You’re laughable. Give specific refutation or admit defeat. You’ve given nothing, absolutely nothing. You never even addressed over half the evidence I presented. The FBI supported his guilt. LOL. Try again. Agsin with the epic projection. You’re beyond delusion and need help.

          • Jfrn

            You are delusional. Read, as I handed you the FBI protocols. You are in extreme denial. You can’t admit defeat, due to you being completely demolished by me.

            Furthermore, refering to your “sweat DNA”
            DNA Test with Sweat: A condition referred to medically as ‘perspiration’; sweat is a cooling mechanism for the body and help maintain constant internal body conditions. However, it essentially water and dissolved salts and in itself does not contain any cells or DNA. However, we do naturally shed skin cells constantly form our body even when stationary. When we sweat, for example while doing sports, the frictions between our sporting gear and our skin cause the shedding of many skin cells which then may stick (or fall off) to clothes or hats along with the sweat produced. Sending in a sweaty garment may be used as a discreet DNA sample; however, the success rate with this is again very low.

            I can keep going, if you’d like. Only to make you look even more irrational. But if you prefer, I will.

          • Jfrn

            As to the interrogations of Brendon;

            Prior articles in this publication on interrogation have explored civil liability issues arising from intentional violations of Miranda rights, coercive interrogation techniques, and the questioning of minors in abuse investigations in which they are the suspected victims of abuse.
            Courts have recognized that the interrogation of minors in the context of criminal investigations or juvenile delinquency investigations raise special concerns about the capacity of the child to understand the consequences of making a statement. Minors may have a special susceptibility to threats, intimidation, unrealistic promises of leniency, or a juvenile desire to please an adult interrogator.
            Indeed, a questioned minor may have a tendency to tell interrogators what they seem to want to hear, regardless of its truth or falsity. This is particularly the case in the absence of the guidance of a familiar parent, guardian, attorney or other adult.

            Courts are concerned, in all interrogations, with seeing to it that incriminating statements elicited are made voluntarily, and that waivers of the privilege against self- incrimination, or of the right to remain silent or the right to an attorney are also knowing and voluntary. But they become even more concerned about these issues when juveniles are being questioned.
            It can be generally stated that juveniles are supposed to be afforded greater protection during questioning than adults because they are thought to be inherently more susceptible to psychological pressure from adults, especially authority figures, including police officers.
            This article takes a brief look at a number of cases in which courts have examined civil liability issues arising from the interrogation of minors. At the end of the article, a number of useful or pertinent online resources and references are listed.
            Misrepresentations used to obtain consent
            Those questioning minors, or seeking to do so, may try to obtain consent for such interrogation from the minor or their parent by making promises or statements so misleading as to arguably make any voluntariness to the consent or statement tts an illusion.

          • Bcrew

            So you have nothing on his interrogation. Thanks

          • Jfrn

            Stop being blind. You’re just as incompetent as Brenden. I have to laugh at your constant continuation of proving you are legitimately retarded and unable to prove anything. Trust me, you are only doing more harm to yourself.

          • Bcrew

            LOL. Crazy rants is all you have after I destroyed your attempts at substance. I’m being blind because I’m the one blindly believing a propaganda tv show. Hysterical. Your insults show your ignorance and make you look childish and I’m the one doing harm to myself? Wow you are just epic at projecting. Comical

          • Jfrn

            I have the law, as stated above. We all saw the tapes, and have read the interrogation. This the unethical practices performed on him. It’s the law, twit.

          • Bcrew

            LOL. You don’t have the law or know the law. Again you prove my point. You believe a propaganda tv show. They did nothing unethical. They didn’t even raise their voice. They didn’t show all the interrogations. The court allowed his confession and the appeals courts upheld it. You don’t have the law on your side. You live in an alternate reality. You continue to embarrass yourself. That’s what you’ve reverted to? That’s all you have? Really? That’s just pathetic. Continue with the insults, it proves you have nothing and makes you look childish.

          • Jfrn

            And you have nothing on your “so called” evevidence. Nothing. Zero. Good for you. You’re going to go far, little buddy. Ignorance is bliss, I’m assuming, as you don’t have to face the facts. I won. Done. You’re hysterical, though. Thanks for the laugh. Good riddance, little engine that could. YOU LOSE! 😂

          • Bcrew

            I completely destroyed you. Dismantled your point by point post in which you didn’t even address over half the evidence. Won? I can’t stop laughing. I owned you. You have no response. You’ve given up in defeat. Your entire argument was based on a biased tv show and crazy conspiracies. You sound like his attorneys trying to get him off on a technicality not someone who objectively looks at evidence it has any interest in the truth. Thanks for playin.

          • Rita

            Haha…go for it dumbass!!!

          • Jfrn

            It’s a sad day for conservatives as they have hit the stupidity jackpot with your party association. May we all be forever ashamed.

          • Bcrew

            You aren’t a conservative. You’re too low info, a classic Obama liberal. Your constant calling people idiots and going on crazy rants represents you well. Not to mention your belief in a biased tv show and crazy conspiracies with zero to support it. This post just further reveals your complete inability to defend your position. You project worse than anyone I’ve ever seen and live in an alternate universe.

          • Jfrn

            Um-k. Whatever you say. I’m not a conservative because you say so. Makes perfect sense, since everything you say is truth. In order for me to be projecting, I would have to think of myself as stupid, ignorant, and uneducated, which, I do not. Therefore, I am not projecting, rather, crediting the person who is actually guilty of such things. If the shoe fits, man, wear it well. And you do.

          • Bcrew

            No because you’re not intelligent enough. You proved that. Again with the projection. Thanks for proving my point. Wear it proudly.

          • Jfrn

            I’m extremely intelligent, but nice try. It’s hilarious you keep using my words and interject them into your comments. There is a really big dictionary out there. Use it. Stop relying on me to think for you. It should be a crime for you to call someone unintelligent.

          • Bcrew

            LOL. Yes, you showed that here. Highly intelligent people believe propaganda tv shows and crazy conspiracy theories. I can’t stop laughing. You have a bit of Napoleon’s Syndrome. Might want to see someone about that. Like you said, if the shoe fits wear it.

          • Jfrn

            Here we go again with the same argument. Propaganda, crazy conspiracy theories, blah, blah. Short man syndrome..yes, that’s what I have. I could care less what you think. How about that quiz?

          • Jfrn

            The only point you have is nothing. You have no point. No point exists. Comprehend?

          • Bcrew

            I have facts. You have fantasy. Comprehend?

          • Jfrn

            You have the ability to copy and paste, I have the ability to debunk your pasted words. Comprehend?

          • Bcrew

            You’ve debunked nothing. You have no response to my points about how ludicrous your wild speculation is.

          • Bcrew

            Your entire argument is wild speculation. The irony is astonishing.

        • Jfrn

          I have. Nothing points me to believe that he did it. No evidence that would make me say…yep he did it. No denying it. However, none of it has made me waiver on my not guilty verdict.

          I am willing to hear your points and reasons why it proves otherwise.

        • Brad Smith

          Why do you keep telling people what opinion they’re supposed to have?

          That’s like if my entire argument to you was, well, literally what you said. That’s not an argument. You just asked if she “looked at all the evidence” and then said “Avery is scary”. Wow! I’m sold, detective!

          • chad

            Who told you what opinion you should have? Now you are just making stuff up. You, and everybody, are entitled to their own opinion. You argue your point from what you saw in a documentary….and now you critique my posts? I dont need to write out what was and what wasnt presented in the documentary. If you decide to look beyond what was shown, then good on you. If not, oh well.
            There is a reason the JURY of peers convicted. There is a reason that every appellate and higher courts have turned the case down. Are you saying they are all corrupt? That’s a lot of corruption to keep a lid on.

          • Deb

            There are question about Jury members, so cross that off. The appellate and higher courts did nothing with the first case either. Cross that off. I’m simply not sure he’s guilty or not, but I am saying the Trial itself was a farce. I know there are bad cops and I believe Manitowoc Co. has a few. I detest bad cops. Dealt with one in our area for DECADES and it was not the Police who stopped him, it was a classmate of mine everyone wrote off as a trouble maker…until the trial. No other officer was taken to task for covering up but calls had been made. Chief retired, one quit and we’re supposedly all safe now. It doesn’t happen in just big cities. If you are one of the good guys, Thank you for your service.

        • Bcrew

          Yep. No question he did it. But your dealing with irrational people who believe a propaganda film. They’ll deny all facts to believe what they want to believe.

        • James Fyfe

          I am sure if the prosecution were to present some real evidence it would be fully considered but all we get now is that they have brilliant evidence that the chose not to use, now I wonder why that is, they very much struggled to find evidence during the trial, so I can’t think why they wouldn’t use it

          • chad

            James, i think the argument is that the directors chose what evidence to present in their video of the court proceedings, not the prosecution.

      • Linda Lynn

        Couldn’t agree more

        • Marcia

          I agree with jfrn also….It should have been a mistrial!!!

      • Bcrew

        It can only be explained away if you are completely irrational and suspend all disbelief.

        • Jfrn

          According to many experts, your comment is completely irrational. Maybe your motivated reasoning has you blinded and unable to accept clear evidence.

          • Bcrew

            Many experts? Like two biased filmmakers. Your belief in the reality of a propaganda tv show is what is completely irrational. No expert or rational person thinks he’s innocent. I’ve presented the clear evidence proving his guilt here. The only response I’ve gotten is wild conjecture, crazy conspiracy theory, and denial. No one can point to any real evidence even beginning to show his innocence or rebutting the mountain of evidence against him.

          • Jfrn

            I’d love to see where you’ve done this. I’m sure I will be able to dispute each one. By the way, just because someone doesn’t have the same belief as you, does not make them irrational. As a matter of fact, I find that you are irrational for saying such.
            All of the evidence they used to convict can be explained away. You say a biased opinion due to the documentary, I say you have a biased opinion due to the propaganda being fed to you by the same ones who prosecuted him.

            By the way, there are several things that have been rebutted, perhaps you are refusing to see it.

          • Bcrew

            No, not accepting reality makes them irrational. I’ll repost it here. You won’t refute anything you can’t. You’ll deny facts, you’ll make up crazy conspiracy nonsense with no evidence to support it, you’ll deflect, and you’ll give your biased opinion that things should somehow be different, again with no evidence to support it, just wild conjecture. All this evidence can be explained away if you deny the truth, no other way. He’s guilty as sin. Saying something has been rebutted doesn’t make it so. Maybe you don’t get that.

          • Jfrn

            Your facts are NOT facts! Allegations, improper testing, blood found by luminal but unable to determine its origins…these are not facts. YOU are the refusing to see the facts Reality is, these things prove nothing. Look it up. Look up test controls. Look up every scientific evidence I have given you, and only then can you tell me, which you can’t, that this does not support my evidence. That’s science, buddy. You have a one way ticket of guilt. That’s sad.

          • Bcrew

            Thanks for proving my point. You have nothing but denial. You’re brainwashed. The DNA is established fact, even the defense doesn’t question it. You don’t know what you’re talking about obviously and appear to nothing about the case. You haven’t given any scientific facts and you don’t know what science is. You’re clearly delusional.

          • Jfrn

            You’re obviously an idiot. One track minds don’t acknowledge the evidence provided. Back up what you claim as not being evidence. You can’t, therefore, you resort to name calling.

            Prove your case, buddy, otherwise, it’s like talking to a child.

          • Bcrew

            LOL. Insults and anger the sure sign of s failed argument. And you said I couldn’t debate. Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            Laughable. If this city had a mascot of stupidity, you would be it.

          • Bcrew

            The post of someone with a completely failed argument, who knows it. LOL

          • Bcrew

            Her body and effects burned 20 ft from his house, he purchased handcuffs and leg irons that the nephew claims they used on her, her car found on the property with his blood on it and sweat DNA on the hood latch which Brendan said he opened and removed a battery cord, his other nephew claiming he asked him to help get rid of the body, a bullet found in his garage that was forensically linked to his gun and had Halbach’s DNA on it, inmate testimony that he made plans for a rape/murder fantasy and torture chamber while in prison, her car key in his house, his nephews testimony, his lifelong criminal history including numerous sexual misconduct and rape allegations, his lack of alibi, her saying he was creepy and came out in a towel to meet her and she didn’t want to meet him again, he specifically asked to meet her and used his sisters name for the appointment, the use of the 67 number to his his identity when calling twice before she got ther and then no 67 number when calling her after he already had her which was his attempt at an alibi, and on and on. You have to completely disregard reality to believe he didn’t do this.

            I’ll expect crazy conspiracy theory and wild speculative rant, as that’s all I have gotten from Avery supporters.

          • Jfrn

            Her bones were found in different locations, and by expert testimony, unable to determine if that was the original burn site. Anthropologists were not the first to examine the remains. They had been disturbed prior to them being allowed to do their forensic investigation. This is not protocol.
            How long do you think it would take to cut up a body into small pieces and then burn it to the state of her remains?
            So what he bought leg irons and handcuffs several weeks prior? That doesn’t make someone a murderer. DNA on those particular items showed his DNA, another unidentified DNA, but NO DNA of TH.
            Have seen the headboard to the bed this act was supposedly committed in? Unless her arm’s length is comparable to gumby, this is not plausible. No markings on headboard found that would be equivalent to someone being tortured and fighting for their life.
            NO DNA found anywhere in the house of TH. None. Explain, please.
            The car was located in a place feet from a car crusher. Don’t you think, that if he was able to pull of getting rid of any of her DNA, don’t you think that he would be able to pull of crushing the car, especially since this is something he does on a daily basis?
            The blood DNA found in the car should have never been admitted due to improper testing. I’ve explained this numerous times, so I’ll just give you the short version. All testing of blood sampling has to have test controls done before any determination can be made. Fact. By doing these controls, one is able to find the threshold of detection. Because no threshold of detection is determined, one cannot determine if EDTA is or is not in a sample. Also, the blood sample would have had to refrigerated for the EDTA to remain in the tube for this amount of time, which, it was not.
            There is no such thing as “sweat” DNA. Look it up.
            The bullet DNA testing should’ve been thrown out as well, due to their own protocol, and the protocol of every sampling lab. If a sample is contaminated, it is deemed inconclusive. Period.
            No blood found in the garage, except by luminal, however, this proves nothing. Supposedly cleaned by bleach? Yet blood of an animal was detected. If they are unable to provide evidence that this was her blood, then it’s not a true finding of evidence.
            Allegations, are just that, allegations. Does not prove anything.
            There was no prisoner that testified, however, the say one made a statement. Here’s my question. So you’re going to believe a criminal, yet refuse to believe Avery may be innocent. Contradictory, don’t you think? Where are these prisoners? Where is the drawing? It’s not evidence if it doesn’t exist.
            Here’s another question for you, if TH told Autotrader how fearful she was of Avery, and if that is truly the case, I’m sure she told others, i.e. Friends, family, roommate, about her fear, especially knowing that is where she was headed, then why in the world didnt someone, in particular Auto-trader, not report her missing? Here she was going to a place of a man she was “so called” fearful of, yet not one single person followed up with her after to make sure she was ok? Not reported missing for two days?
            Also, the *67 calls are almost a ridiculous argument. So what if he did that? Was he not planning on her answering? What’s the point in calling if you know they are not going to answer? My guess is, he planned on her answering, therefore, not hiding who he was.
            It’s not conspiracy theories if there is evidence to debunk. Nor is it speculative. You have stated more speculative towards the guilty vote.

          • Bcrew

            Wow nothing but denial, crazy conspiracy theories, lies, and wild speculation. Exactly like I said.

          • Jfrn

            Your perception of reality is scary. Good luck with that. You are immature at debating. Take a class on it, and present your case. Talking to you is like talking to a wall.

          • Bcrew

            I did and destroyed you. You had no response but denial and crazy conspiracy theory. Good luck with that. Your projection is epic. Your argument has zero basis in reality.

          • Bcrew

            So you have no response to the DNA but denial and lies. The defense never disputed most of the DNA evidence. No response to the phone calls. No response to the handcuffs and leg irons. No response to the bullet. No response to all the remains and her effects 20 ft from his house and he knew nothing about it. No response to the rape/fantasy testimony.
            No response to the torture chamber drawings which they documented. No response to the fact that she said he was creepy, didn’t want to meet with him again, and came out in a towel. No response to his asking specifically for her and hiding his identity. No response to his violent and sexual predator history. You basically have no response to anything. Your argument is basically they don’t have a smoking gun. You don’t even know there is sweat DNA. Beyond laughable.

          • Jfrn

            It’s all there. Whether you can read or not is a problem you need to work out your own.

          • Bcrew

            http://www..com/news/making-a-murderer-brendan-dassey-856343

          • Jfrn

            Nothing to pull up there. For someone who tells others to stop reading the Internet, as I have seen in your posts in this thread, you just killed the messenger. Pretty funny. Pot meet kettle.

          • Bcrew

            I’ve done no such thing. Stop lying. Wow. I said don’t believe everything you see on tv or tumors from Reddit. You just further killed your credibility. Really funny.

          • Jfrn

            Oh but you have! It’s all here in black and white. Deny if you will, it’s your specialty.

          • Bcrew

            Nope. Quote me or stop lying. Good luck

          • Jfrn

            Just did, buddy.

          • Bcrew

            Nope

          • Jfrn

            So you deny your own words? Nice!

          • Bcrew

            Still waiting on a quote. You enjoy lying. Nice

          • Bcrew

            Lie yet again, it’s your specialty.

          • Jfrn

            Keep refusing to acknowledge your own words. I can’t help but laugh.

          • Bcrew

            I acknowledge them and that you can’t apparently comprehend them. You said I made fun of people for getting information from the Internet and then orofuved a quote where I said talking points. Laughable. Where would I get info from. How embarrassing for you.

          • Jfrn

            You said “talking points from the Internet”. Are you denying this?

          • Bcrew

            Talking points, not facts genius. Wow what an epic fail. Embarrassing.

          • Jfrn

            You should be embarrassed. You have a common theme. This is your argument in a nutshell:
            Looney, liar, propaganda, projecting, proving your point, talking points, epic fail.
            Yes, you have convinced me of your intelligence. I am convinced.

          • Jfrn

            Talking points like your belief in sweat DNA? Ken Kratz is full of talking points.

          • Bcrew

            That I proved existed. Facts aren’t talking points. Your sweat DNA nonsense is.

          • Jfrn

            Prove it again, to me. Prove me to me that one can conclude DNA was derived from sweat. I’ll be waiting.

          • Jfrn

            By the way, those are your words. I quoted your words. Deny or retract.

          • Bcrew

            Yes, and they don’t say what you said. Deny or detract. You failed epically and continue to double down. Still waiting on a quote that say I said all internet info isn’t legit. Ludicrous. All expect more crickets, deflection, and denial. Embarrassing for you.

          • Jfrn

            I quoted you verbatim. I did not change your words, but thanks for playing.

          • Jfrn

            You will never embarrass me, son. You only embarrass yourself.

          • Jfrn

            Right here: you can’t even keep your lies straight.
            “I can’t believe people believe talking point info from the Internet and a biased tv show. The evidence against him is astonishing”

            Your quote. I guess your blind to your own words too.

          • Bcrew

            “Talking point info.” Try again. That’s not all internet information. Epic fail. I guess you never learned to comprehend what you read.

          • Jfrn

            Pick and paste what you want. You said it, I quoted you, you continue to deny. Ok

          • Bcrew

            And you were wrong. Epic fail. Try again. Where would I get my info from genius? Your silliness is precious. Ok

          • Jfrn

            I agree to you calling me genius. You make no sense as to the rest of your garbage. Epic fail, indeed.

          • Bcrew

            And you apparently don’t recognize sarcasm either. Big surprise. Yes, epic fail.

          • Jfrn

            Oh I do. I also recognize truth, so thanks for the compliment.

          • Bcrew

            You’ve proved the opposite repeatedly. Truth is a propaganda tv show and crazy conspiracy theories. Thanks for the laughs.

          • Jfrn

            Not at all. Have you taken the quiz yet?

      • Rhonda La Fond

        Why don’t you come to Wisconsin and study the case and get the real facts. That animal is going to rot in prison where he belongs. Theresa Halbach did not deserve this.

        • Jfrn

          Why don’t you calm down, sister. I have the same facts you do. You think because I don’t live in Wisconsin I don’t have access to the facts? C’mon! Get real! What century do you think we are in
          FYI, where did I say she deserved any of this? Why what makes you think I wouldn’t rather see a fair trial and ALL possible suspects interrogated, to make SURE she gets the justice she deserves, instead of believing everything I’m told? Instead of worrying about me, maybe you should worry about THAT!

          • Rhonda La Fond

            You calm down sister. There is plenty of evidence and his own nephew, who helped him do it, testified. He was not forced to testify. They found his DNA in her car, on her car keys. Found her DNA on his gun that was found in his house. Her car was found on his property where she went to do a story. He was seen purchasing handcuffs and leg irons, that were found on his property where she was kept. They found her remains in the fire pit on his property. His girlfriend and fiance lied so they are not credible. I never said anything about you saying Theresa Halbach didn’t deserve this. Her family was not in the documentary because they can’t bear to go through this anymore. The whole family has suffered enough. What facts do you have to prove him innocent?

          • Jfrn

            What makes you think I didn’t know these things already? Everything you’ve stated is either, not directly related to the crime, except by the testimony given by a coerced, YES, coerced statement or the items of evidence has plenty of possible corruption tied to it. I’ve explained, all in full detail, throughout this thread. Keep scrolling, you’ll find it.
            My question for you is this, is there seriously something wrong with you and your ethics to really believe that the statements given by a 16 year old kid, with an IQ of 73, reading and comprehension level of a 4th grader, at the time,without his attorney present, which, by the way, has admitted to feeding him to the prosecution, a parent present, without full AND fair legal representation, were not coerced? And yes, I’ve seen the tapes and read the transcript, so don’t try that. If you find that it was even legal, questions your full knowledge of the law, but more so, if you find it ethical, I’d say you have some serious moral searching to do.
            Regardless, I feel terrible that this family has lost their loved one and that they have to relive it everyday. However, I’m more concerned with finding the right suspect, instead of assuming the police got this one right. Too many questions left unanswered. If anything, I’m doing this on behalf of her

          • Jfrn

            Let me also ask you this. Do you think it’s possible for her family to have been brainwashed by the investigation? During their grieving process, do you think that just maybe the investigation actually used this victim to further their cause? I’m not saying that is the case, but certainly a possibility.
            When people are trying to find justice, whether the outcome is that he is guilty, you should also realize nobody is doing this inspite of the family. Nobody harbors ill will towards her family. Nobody is fighting against her family. If justice is going to be served, in her honor, shouldn’t it be done fairly? Shouldn’t it be done, without question? Isn’t that what she would have wanted? Just a thought everyone should consider.

          • Rhonda La Fond

            Justice was served when Avery was found guilty. He was found guilty by a jury of his peers.

          • Jfrn

            You sound like my new found friend Bcrew. So, I decided to scroll through this thread, and low and behold, I’m the only one you have commented on. Forget the hundreds of comments before mine that agree with my argument, you happen to comment on mine. From several days ago. You two are either working together or are the one in the same. Nice try

          • Rhonda La Fond

            Nope. Yours is the only person I’ve commented on. I use my name.

          • Rhonda La Fond

            Nope. I’m me.

          • Jfrn

            Well, I won’t get into it with you, but I stand firm that this case reeks of misconduct, from the investigators, to the investigation itself, not to mention improper testing of DNA.

    • Linda Lynn

      What wasn’t shown wasn’t even important because from what I have seen the prosecution had not proven the case beyond a reasonable doubt. The police officers of the county should have never been involved in the case let alone be involved in the searches. There was way to much conflict of interest with the lawsuit and his having been convicted and serving 18 years for a crime he did not commit. Also where did u find the actual case.

      • chad

        You are very incorrect. Dassey’s confessions were MUCH MORE detailed than what was shown. More DNA was found containing epithelial cells on the interior of the trunk, because of a later interview with Dassey. That DNA belonged to Avery, when he loaded her into the trunk. There was much more DNA evidence that was not shown….because it wasnt controversial. They also didnt show Avery’s prior history with Halbach. He had harrassed her and left weird/sexual advances on her voicemail. Avery also had a history of cruelty to animals and crimes/complaints against women. Halbach’s license plates were taken off the vehicle and hidden on Avery’s property….again with his epithelial cells on them.

        • chad

          Dont call me “lazy”, and categorize me as “they”. That is somewhat hypocritical, since you are arguing that the police are at fault for over-generalizing and jumping to conclusions. Documentaries aren’t all balanced and equal. This documentary had an agenda. And, although it had this agenda, it may have uncovered some misconduct. I was interviewed by a radio station yesterday. This was my position: if the evidence on the documentary was the entirety of it, these guys should be at home and free. But when i researched the case further, it became easy to see why the judge was so firm in his decisions…including calling Avery the “most dangerous man ever to be in his courtroom”. I also stated i thought there was some corruption with a COUPLE police officers. I told them that i thought Dassey was used and taken advantage of by Avery, and he should be freed. Dassey’s lawyer was a tool, and did not do his job. So, in the end, it was my opinion that Dassey killed Halbach, but there was some serious “screw-ups” on all levels.

        • Brad Smith

          Okay, thank you. I HAVE seen all of this, and it didn’t cause me to believe he did it without a doubt still.

        • Sanchioso

          I was starting to have a feeling that SA could be guilty, but…

          1. If you believe Brendan confessions…where is all of TH’s DNA?
          2. The degree of harrassment/sexual advances must have been embellished…cuz she showed up to the property again, and apparently alone.
          3. Colburn/Manitowoc police had the license plates/Rav4 before they were found as per Colburns call to dispatch

        • carbolaw

          Complete exaggeration Chad and you know it. The DNA under the hood was very much disputed, the interrogations of Dassey were a complete and utter joke. They do show the detailed statements in the documentary and show exactly how they were coerced out of him. Halfbach also never said she felt threatened. This was also explained. You definitely sound like the investigators on the case attempting to twist the evidence as far as possible. If this crime went down the way Dassey’s forced confession suggests then there would be NO reason to twist so hard to get the evidence to fit. It would be all over the place.

          • chad

            How many hours of his confession did you watch?

        • Deb

          Which evidence was found by Manitowoc County and what was found by Calumet? That’s my bar for presenting evidence. Was the unseen footage of Dassey interview as leading as the parts we saw, because that was really bad and I thought they should have been suspended with no pay just for that. Also, Len’s actions should have made that inadmissible. It always comes back to people not crossing their T’s and dotting their I’s. Creepy doesn’t mean guilty of murder, either, except in Manitowoc.

      • chad

        Linda I absolutely agree with the conflict of interest. Just because i firmly believe Avery is guilty, does not mean i dont believe there was police misconduct

      • chad

        You made my point in that statement…”what wasnt shown wasnt even important because from what i saw the prosecution had not proven the case……” How do you know they hadnt proven the case, if all the evidence wasnt shown on the documentary? There is very important evidence not shown.

        • JB

          You keep saying that Chad, important evidence like?

        • Brad Smith

          Are you like, one of the officers?

          Seriously. Tell me. You’re acting just like them. I’ve been scrolling for five minutes now waiting to read your list of evidence that’s going to BLOW MY SOCKS OFF. Come on. Show me.

          • nothingbutthetruth

            I concur with you Brad.

    • Schwartzy

      Most of the documentary is simply video of the trial. With nothing else, it is so obvious that the police framed Avery it is sickening. But if you believe police never do anything wrong, don’t deserve to be questioned, never shoot innocent people,e tc., sure, you wouldn’t believe it, would you?

      • chad

        You’re a little late to the party Schwartzy. I guess if you dont read the whole thread, make assumptions before understanding the basis of all the arguments, never read the full literature, facts, points people make, etc….you might come to the conclusion you just did, wouldn’t you. The fact that people are interpreting the documentary as gospel is sickening. You made my point, “with nothing else, it is so obvious that the police framed Avery…”

        Schwartzy, do you realize they have over 700 hours of footage, that they edited into 10 hours? I could have filmed 700 hours of Hitler at his worst. And i could have edited it down to 10 hours to make him look like a saint. You saw a small percentage of the trial.

        You are entitled to your opinion, Schwartzy…but i would caution you not to make your decision from the documentary alone. It’s propaganda.

  • Jfrn

    I’m a moron? I think you should do some research. You are completely incorrect. I’m stating the facts and you are stating opinion. Get it straight before you ignorantly call someone a moron. Provide an explanation of each of my points that you disagree with. I guarantee you won’t be able to. Instead of doing that, you resort to name calling. How adult of you.

  • Jfrn

    Let me, furthermore, ask you to explain to me 1. Why would I be paranoid? I’m just an observer in this case. As a matter of fact, if I was paranoid, I certainly wouldn’t be posting on a public forum against the state. 2). What makes me a moron? Dare me to explain to you about WHY you are wrong. And when I do, YOU will feel like a moron. 3). How am I gullible? Gullible would mean me believing whatever the government tells me, because they are always right. C’mon…who’s gullible, again? 4). Breeding? Dogs breed. And maybe that’s what you would do, I don’t know. But so far, as evidenced by your post, this is a possibility. 5). Manipulation would mean I would not be able to come to my own conclusions. I’m pretty sure, with what the state presented, they did not convince, or manipulate, as you call it, me that they had a slam dunk case. Perhaps, you have been manipulated. 6). A rube? Nope. I’m an educated woman. Who even uses that word? Maybe you are old and senile.

    • Storm

      Nice rebuttal Jfrn!

      • Jfrn

        It’s one thing to have a different opinion. It’s another to have a different opinion supported with evidence, which I can respect more than your average opinion with nothing to back it up. However, there is something entirely disturbing about someone who tries to win over public opinion by means of name calling and garbage spewing. If one is unable to accept the opinion of others, while defending theirs, with respect, one should find the nearest bar and see how well they survive there, instead of hiding behind a facade of computer screens and screen names.

    • Laurie Anne

      Well done, Jfrn. Bourgeoisie scum has apparently named himself very aptly, and didn’t really deserve such a well thought out reply. 🙂

      • Jfrn

        Ha! I couldn’t agree more. Just thought I would spell it out for them, just in case they were a “rube” 😂

  • Jf

    The whole thing is weird to me…. perhaps she’s not even dead at all. The Halbach family is never crying or upset, and the brother is only spokes person for the family. And Teresa made a video about her death 3 years prior to the incident.

  • Karen Miller

    Reasonable doubt for sure. And I don’t think the poor child was involved. If I was a lawyer I would take their case on for free. I hope after this aired there is somebody that will help them.

  • Maria Werner Brejner

    Even with the additional evidence against Steven Avery, there are too many holes in the case for him to be found guilty, in my opinion. I don’t see how 12 people could find it 100% certain that he did it, and even less that his nephew did it. It ought to have been either a hung jury or mistrial, or not guilty. There is just too much uncertainty to defend putting two people in jail for life.

  • Bob Hobbins

    If Steven Avery is innocent and telling the truth, then Teresa had to have been murdered outside the Avery property, because he stated he saw her drive away in here car after meeting with him.

    • Laurie Anne

      Very likely, I’d say.

  • Jackietaz

    I don’t have an opinion if Avery or Dassey are innocent or guilty but they absolutely did not get a fair trial, especially Dassey. It’s scary how messed up the legal system is and how you don’t really have rights once you have been accused of a crime. There needs to be laws put in place about the length of time a minor can be interrogated and it should be required that a parent and a lawyer always be present during interrogation of a minor.

  • disqus_kiEFA8DTlJ

    Steven Avery was so close to 36million. I don’t believe he would risk that. I was leaning toward the ex boyfriend, but the jealous brothers of Steven are also suspect. And poor Branden. The whole thing is just a shame.

  • Heather Renee

    Innocent!

  • Sensabull .

    Why doesn’t someone check Theresa’s phone records and see who it was who was calling repeatedly and harassing/pranking her? Was Steve Avery in possession of his phone for the two hours leading up to Theresa’s arrival on 10/31? Can someone check if there was a visitor’s log book at the hospital where Scott Tadych’s mother was a patient on 10/31 and if so, what time did Scott log in and out? Who on the Avery property met with Theresa when she visited on 10/10? Someone should look at the bank accounts of Scott Tadych, all 3 other Dassey brothers, the 2 other Avery brothers, Barb Avery, Lenk, Vogel and anyone else named as defendants in the 2005 civil trial Steve Avery vs….Who shows a big withdrawal or deposit between 10/1/05 and 5/30/06? It seems that there will never be a retrial until new evidence is discovered- and i think it’s up to the AVery family themselves (the innocent/willing ones anyway) to do what they can to find any evidence. Did anyone look in the spots where Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych would normally go hunting to see if there were any signs of a burn pit in those areas? The AVerys state that the investigators only looked at Steve from day 1. WEll they should have known from experience that Steve was about to get screwed again. And they should have taken active measures to see what they could find out on their own. They were willing to put up their property for bail? Well they should have put some of it up to pay a private investigator or two. Fool me once ….

    • JB

      Everyone related in anyway to this case needs to have their bank accounts, phone records, you name it… checked. There are a number of suspects in this case and I have not seen or heard any proof that an investigation was launched on anyone except Steven Avery and his nephew Brendan Dassy. Who did they investigate? Does anyone have any names?

  • Wayne Holt

    What if Teresa killed herself? The Manitowoc PD finds her elsewhere and sees the opportunity to frame Steven Avery. Not so far fetched.

    • Michael Thomas Elchin

      You know I kinda kicked that around a little bit after seeing her filming herself and her saying if she had died she wants everyone to know she died happy and whatnot but if you were going to off yourself would you go and work all da y then do it?idk

  • DebsterDoo

    Why would someone that just got out of jail, with no past priors of violence against women, do this? He was awaiting his payout. Why didn’t he just crush her car? Why weren’t there markings on the headboard of the bed from the chains? Where was the blood in the trailer? Why wouldn’t he just burn the key or get rid of it?

  • Torbjørn Eide

    There seems to be ONE really damning evidence and that is the bullet found In the garage. Unless Steve could claim that this weapon was not under his control at the time of the murder, he must be guilty. I have no doubt that some if not most of the other evidence was put there by these very unprofessional policemen. It is unbelievable that they get to keep their jobs.

    • JB

      Right but this single bullet found on the floor in Steven’s garage which was found in a single test to have Teresa’s DNA. How a bullet theoretically went through Teresa to land on the floor, without her otherwise leaving a single drop of blood or hair follicle in a messy garage, is a scenario the prosecution avoided trying to explain. No other DNA from Teresa was found in the garage whatsoever, despite the police claiming this was the murder site. AND!!! This bullet was found approximately 6 months after the initial searches (in March). Who had access to Avery’s confiscated gun in that time? Why that would be the Manitowoc PD, of course.

  • Torbjørn Eide

    I agree. So much has been said about the “system” failing, but in the end, real people have to do the job. If you have law officers who believe it is their job to ensure a conviction when there is no evidence, then you are screwed anyway.

    • Bcrew

      Which isn’t what happenned here. There is plenty of evidence, you just don’t want to believe it.

      • James Fyfe

        There is no real evidence, no eye witnesses and no blood or DNA, all you have is a forced confession from a kid with severe learning difficulties, if she was tortured, had her throat slit and mutilated then shot, then where is the blood, avery couldn’t clean himself or his trailer how could he clean up his sh!thole of a trailer, the only blood was averys and it came from a vial

        • Bcrew

          I can’t believe people believe talking point info from the Internet and a biased tv show. The evidence against him is astounding.
          Her body and effects burned 20 ft from his house, he purchased handcuffs and leg irons that the nephew claims they used on her, her car found on the property with his blood on it and sweat DNA on the hood latch which Brendan said he opened and removed a battery cord, his other nephew claiming he asked him to help get rid of the body, a bullet found in his garage that was forensically linked to his gun and had Halbach’s DNA on it, inmate testimony that he made plans for a rape/murder fantasy and torture chamber while in prison, her car key in his house, his nephews testimony, his lifelong criminal history including numerous sexual misconduct and rape allegations, his lack of alibi, her saying he was creepy and came out in a towel to meet her and she didn’t want to meet him again, he specifically asked to meet her and used his sisters name for the appointment, the use of the 67 number to his his identity when calling twice before she got ther and then no 67 number when calling her after he already had her which was his attempt at an alibi, and on and on. You have to completely disregard reality to believe he didn’t do this.

          • Herbii

            the irony is everything you just said can be tied to other people who lived on the property!!!! Yes you make a very tight argument.. anyone logical would believe him too be guilty….but That is the most troubling part to me!! It was too easy. But also too many holes.. and when it comes to law and facts, people in court cases always think they are right bc too many emotions are involved..

            So yes based on what you said, hes guilty… unless you think of these odd occurrences…the magic key.. not saying the cops did it.. but for that too be found in the open after 8 days looking is just odd and convenient.. (with other people on the property someone living there could have easily snuck in) also the missing blood in his trailer or garage.. see, that is a huge hole.. the prosecution has to prove how and why, etc.. if they cant backup a theory, they cant just speculate.. and the amount of blood that is missing in the trailer and garage is reasonable doubt. (As in there was NO blood at all aftr someone who was supposedly tortured, cut throat, stabbed and shot???? And no blood??) .. if jurors were logically thinking aboit the missing blood… they cant assume, that IF the Prosecution was wrong about the location of the crime, S.Avery is still guilty bc the crime must have taken place elsewhere with no blood being found…”… thats doubt in itself.. and whether or not Avery is guilty, one can not assume.. that is why our justice system is so flawed..

            to me that is astonishing… this case was done so badly, that they f’cked it up again like they did in 1985.. while i dont believe in corrupt cops, i find the key and blood suspicious and wayyyy too convenient! And you are also forgetting the other people who were living on the property had motive… they knew Avery’s lawsuit was going very well… here comes Tersa Halbrach and thats not only motove, thats opportunity!! They probly thought Steven Avery would still get the momey but it would goto them if he was in prison!!!! Even if not, now they get the business!!

            Also…. We have a kid Brandon Dassey with no evidence, who clearly is disabled and will say whatever someone wants him too say! Its sickening what happened to Brandan Dassey!! And Prosecutor Katz is out of touch – he clearly is not up too date with interrogation techniques and wrong doings.. anyone with a logical, law thinking mind seeing a kid with the comprehension of a 5 year old by seeing him take what the cops are saying which is leading him too the answers!!!

            He didnt even know what the word “inconsistent” meant.. (neither did his mom)… he said he guessed the answers too the detevtives like he does on homework!!! ,someone with an IQ of 70 who confesses can not be trusted!!!! Regardless of Avery’s innocence or guilt, this case has so many holes… however, even tho i am not sure if Avery did it or not. I am positive Brandon Dassey had NOTHING to do with it…

          • Bcrew

            With his DNA all over it. Now it was too easy. Man, the delusion is just astounding. Thanks for the laughs.

          • No name

            Asked that kid how they cleaned up all that blood? Ask him why wasn’t there blood on the bed and all in the room and the garage? Ask him what did they do with their bloody clothes? Where are the 11 bullet wholes in her body? Where is the slit across her neck? Where in the heck is the crime scene? Who heard 11 gun shots? All those people living on that property. Someone had to hear 11 gun shots fired. Okay, someone had hear a shot. Why wasn’t the entire house and garage tested for blood? What did Avery wear that day? What did Damsey wear that day? Damsey’s school could have verified what clothes he had on that day. Does anyone remember? Does anyone recall them changing clothes anytime that day? Did anyone check Teresa’s travel time from one destination to Avery’s property? Did anyone speak to the people she visited before going to the Avery property? That establishes a for sure timeline. Where is her purse? Where is her camera? Even if Avery and Damsey are guilty, the cops and the prosecution messed this case up. That’s the bottom line. Oh wait! The ex-boyfriend claims they guessed her password. Where is her cell phone? He could have reset her password. If the code was broken, who actually broke the code? Was it the boyfriend or the roommate? Let’s say she was killed at another location, because those are the hardest murders to solve. This means she could have left the Avery property and saw someone on the way to her next destination. She could have made it home or someone drove her to another location from somewhere else or someone drove her away from the Avery property dead or alive. What if she was suffocated or strangled? This would not leave a bloody mess. Answer these questions.

          • Bcrew

            Asked that kid why he had bleach stains on his pants?
            Why would there be blood all over? They cleaned up. You watch to much CSI. They burnt her body up with tires that had her remains intertwined with them. How would you find evidence of the slashing and shooting? Are you serious? They fired guns in the property all the time. Her purse and camera were in Avery’s burn barrel within 20 feet of his house. Yes, they checked all those things and everything leads to Avery. Quit believing a biased tv show. All the evidence points to Avery.
            Why was her remains burned in his fire pit and he was seen in front of it having a fire that night? Why was her key with his DNA in his house? Why did her car found on his property have his blood and non-blood DNA on it? Why was there a bullet matched to his gun with her blood on it in the garage? Why do specifics from Dasseys confession match forensics? Why did he have plans for a rape/torture fantasy and torture chambers while he was in prison? Why was Teresa creeped out by him and say he came out to meet her in a towel? Why did he try to hide his identity when calling Teresa, specifically request her, and set up the meeting in his sisters name? And that’s just a start. Answer those questions.

          • Rusty Drew

            I’m sorry your wrong on many levels, I’m starting to believe your one of the corrupt cops or maybe ur the pervert Ken Kratz

          • Bcrew

            LOL thanks for demonstrating the typical intellectual bankruptcy of the Avery supporter argument. No facts, no evidence, no substance.

          • Paul

            Where did you find the info on her purse and camera being in the burn barrel?

          • Bcrew

            It’s in just about every article on the case or try the transcripts.

          • Paul

            There were also human bones in the burn barrel. Why?

          • Bcrew

            Because Avery killed her.

          • LizDexic

            He was EXONERATED and had no “lifelong history of crimes”…DNA evidence was withheld for years that cleared him of the rape charge. Yet, you’re sure he was guilty of that too.

          • Bcrew

            He was exonerated of the rape. He would of served 6 years anyways for assaulting his cousin and threatening her with a shotgun. He’s also been convicted of cruelty to animals for dousing the family cat with gas or oil and throwing it into a fire. He was also convicted of burglary twice and had been accused of a different rape and was being investigated for it when he went to prison. He has had other sexual misconduct allegations and his ex-fiancée says he abused her and the police record supports this. So yes, he is a lifelong criminal. Stop parotting lies from a biased tv show and Internet chat sites. The evidence clearly shows he’s guilty as sin.

          • Elizabeth St Bernard

            Wow…reading what Bcrew has gone on and on about, yes, he obviously works for law enforcement in Manitowoc, Wisconsin and is defending their actions to the limit of insanity…The key was found to Teresa Halbach’s RV but after SIX searches and no DNA evidence from her was on the key. This is after she has handled the key how many hundreds or thousands of time. Only his DNA evidence was found on it..that’s because the key was cleaned of her DNA and his put on the key. There is NO other explanation for lack of her DNA on the key. It’s not difficult to plant mitochondrial (“touch”) DNA!! Also crime lab analyst Sherry Culhane testified that she could not state conclusively that the bones were Teresa’s! She further testified that only 7 of 15 locations matched the known profile. There is a probability the bones did not even belong to Teresa! The state alleged that steel belted tires were used to accelerate the fire, and further that bone charred were found “intertwined in the wires.” If you look at the States photos, the wire they are talking about has not even been shared or burned!! Teresa had crowns on some of her teeth and only tooth fragments were found and a portion of a crown that could not be identified as Teresa’s. There were absolutely no complete teeth found so no tests could be done to emphatically determine these fragments were Teresa’s…After the police forced Brendan Dasssy to say Steve shot her, and when they had already done a search of the garage, amazing they went back again and found a bullet matching Steve’s gun…LOL.. Agent Fassbender told crime lab analyst Sherry Culhane that she needed to “place Teresa Halbach in the house or garage.” She ran a DNA test on the bullet fragment and the control was contaminated which means the results are to be reported as “inconclusive.” Instead, she reported that Teresa Halbach’s DNA was found on the bullet. The defense proved by the notes to Sherry Culhane from Agent Fassbender that this took place. She did as he requested and in my opinion, should be fired from ever working in a lab again for mishandling evidence and lieing under oath!! It was also proven the bones fragements that were found had been moved.!!….I could go on and on and even give a complete synopsis on what did take place. I do not believe the police killed her, but they did take part in covering up the murder of who did and in the framing of Steven and Branden. Somebody will end up breaking their silence in this and talk about what really went on one day even if Steven and Branden are given new trials and an unbiased Judge and a Jury not threatened by the Law Enforcement in that town. Also, just because Steven was convicted for 1…ONE cruelty to animals, which I am not condoning, does not make him a serial killer. People make mistakes in their younger years and he paid for them and not only that…Admitted to them unlike his alcoholic cousin who was spewing her mouth all over town about his doing inappropriate things when she drove by. Funny how her story changed when she gave another interview years later during a disposition. The ex-fiance, tell me, since you work at the police station, did she get arrested again and the deal was…Go on national TV and run your mouth and we will drop the charges…LOL…No doubt!!!…she’s a drunken lowlife and will do whatever it takes to get out of trouble. Nobody forced her to stay on the Avery property after Steve was arrested, although now her story was he was threatening her…LOL…that’s BS…she had a roof over her head and was being taken care of by his family…she only left because she was threatened by the Probation officer who works for law enforcement to leave and not have any contact with Steve. So I’m ready, bring it, whatever you have and I will gladly respond to your ridiculous responses!!

          • Jfrn

            I thought the same thing as to this bcrew being a part of the department. Then I came to realize, no way. They are too ignorant and can’t distinguish between factual evidence and evidence made to fit, with no plausible supporting argument. Probably the ex boyfriend, as he seemed to be less than your average smart kid, or family of the department, such as a misinformed child.

          • DAb

            I have seen your comments on other articles, and every single point you make are the same points that Kratz’s makes, I am not sure that you are not him. No.1 Inmate testimony was never brought into trial, because the hear say was probably something Kratz made up. No.2 There is no DNA in sweat, but it was mentioned in court that the investigator who searched the Avery vehicle did not change his gloves before searching her vehicle No.3 The handcuffs had pick fur on them and if they were used on her, it would positively have her DNA on them, which they didn’t. No.4 The bullet was only linked to that make and model of gun, which was same as the one Tadych tried to sell the next day. No.5 She never said that she did not want to go back, the only thing she said about the towel thing was ewwwh. No.6 She never answered the last call he made to her, so the attempt to make an alibi, is nothing but a made-up theory by Mr Kratz, himself. Your actually quote him word for word in the comment above which makes me wonder if indeed are Mr Kratz

          • Bcrew

            I present the facts. Sorry they don’t agree with your false narrative. Inmate testimony was documented. Try again. You can obtain DNA from sweat. The investigator didn’t change gloves after searching the inside of the vehicle meaning his DNA was in or on the car. A car he claimed he never touched. Strike two. They’d have DNA because you say so. Strike three. The bullet was linked to Avery’s gun. Wrong yet again. She said she was worried about him, he creeped her out, he looked at her funny, he came out in a towel, and that she did not want to go back. Her boss told her to never go in his house. You’re badly uninformed and repeating lies. She never answered the last call because Acery had her. It was his attempt to act like he didn’t know she was missing or that she never showed up. What other reason did he have to call especially without using 67 to hide his identity like his previous two calls. Another delusional post by an Avery supporter.

    • Linda Lynn

      First Brendan said he slit her throat then he said he stabbed he. He went along with everything the policemen told him what they believed happened. Also there was six places of Averys blood in her car yet not one fingerprint. If he wore gloves to avoid print and the cut with on his finger how did the blood get through the gloves. Also the cut was on his left hand how did the blood stain get to the right of the ignition of her car. Do t make sense.

      • LizDexic

        Absolutely. And where was all the blood from the alleged stabbing and throat slitting. You’re going to believe that those two were so thorough that not a single blood spatter could be found?

        • Jf

          And I again go back too, she was she killed in the room, the garage, then drug to her car then to the fire pit? I don’t understand how they say it all took place in the bedroom. Then they say the garage, but the only place they find blood is her car? This whole set up that they prosecuted him with is so unreal.

          • Trey D

            You got it all wrong. After killing her in the garage, Avery and Dassey threw her dead body into the car and drove to a nearby pond to dispose of it. However, the pond was dry. So they drove back and burned the body. Brendan provided excruciating detail that laid out the entire timeline. You need to listen to his entire confession, not just the little clip in the TV series.

          • Paul

            “Brendan provided excruciating detail that laid out the entire timeline”…ya that he says he made up by reading a situation that happened in a book. Honestly how often does Hollywood or movies show you this kinda thing?? Quite a bit so for a guy like Dassey to have done all this.

          • Trey D

            And suddenly your excuse for his confession just went down the toilet. His low IQ allowed the cops to take advantage of him and yet he’s smart enough to read a 500 page novel and apply its contents to his confession.

          • Paul

            Lol true enough, I do wonder tho if that novel really did swing a gruesome tale as he depicted.

          • Randy Clark

            Not true. A person of low intelligence can put sequence together in pictures without retaining any logical sense or reasoning. In short, it’s possible that he could have read the book and picked up images of scenes in his mind without grasping the literary sense of the structure of the writing. If we are to believe that his original confession is true, then we must find evidence of blood, tissue, and fibers in the bedroom where he stated that they bound her to the bed and stabbed her and slit her throat. There isn’t any such evidence. It wasn’t until much later, after several shifts in his confession prompted by investigators, that they got him to recant the murder in the bedroom and move it to the garage. Again – tissue, blood, fibers? Yeah. None. So, in your toilet, which turd do you choose? You want the physical evidence that doesn’t exist or do you want his confession corroborated by that same evidence? Hmmm…

          • Trey D

            You are seriously gullible. The evidence I spoke of regarding Dassey’s confession was the car, the DNA on the hood, the hood of another car used as camouflage, the bullet in the garage with TH’s DNA, the cut on Avery’s finger, the bones that were removed from the fire pit and tossed around, etc. Yeah all came from a book, that’s what you want us to believe….dude you just keep drinking the kool aid.

          • Hamster Mommy of 5

            The bullet FRAGNENT found in the garage came back inconclusive. There wasn’t any dna found on the bullet fragment in the garage.

          • Trey D

            That’s it? That’s all they got? What about all the blood in Theresa’s car and the bones in the fire pit? And her burned cell phone and pda found in the psychopath’s burn barrel?

          • Jim

            Brendan never made anything up that the police did not tell him first. He is retarded, and clearly can be manipulated by clever investigators, one of them even told him what to draw in his confession. they said Who shot her?? he did not say that. Any moron can see this is a complete fabrication and a young retarded boy has been manipulated by these guys to say whatever they want. In UK, this evidence would have been thrown out and the police investigators would have been prosecuted for carrying out these interviews without some sort of parental/legal guardian being present for the minor being interviewed.

          • Paul

            It’d be the same in Canada too, this kind of thing never would of happened…real shame the American justice system. Especially considering the many many innocent ppl that get abused like this.

          • beerguy

            Um…David Milgaard???

          • Jim

            Brendan provided nothing that the police did not provide him first. obscene abuse of power and intellectual superiority of trained confession seekers against a retarded minor.

          • Melissa Flenner

            Thank u 🙂 u know what’s up

          • sobe

            No, if that was true, blood would have been all over the garage and car. And the tube of blood was opened and tampered with.

          • Trey D

            Sobe……LMAO!! You see, you just made my point even clearer. Thank you for that!

            I recommend you keep up with current events. Avery’s latest lawyer, Kathleen Zellner, filed a petition for a retrial. In it she states that neither Colborn nor Lenk had access to the vial you speak of and that the vial was NOT TAMPERED WITH. Hahahaha!! She states (as the evidence proved out in court) that the vial was opened years earlier to help with Avery’s acquittal for the 18 yrs he spent in jail for his rape conviction.

            You people are so gullible it’s actually quite embarrassing for you. Zellner and Avery now claim Halbach’s ex-boy friend killed her by repeatedly beating her head with a blunt object. He later sneaked into Avery’s trailer and conveniently discovered Avery’s blood in a sink. The ex boy friend took the blood and planted it in the car. Of course, her theory is just as stupid as yours.

            It is startling to see your ignorance shinning through….very brightly. Next I predict you will say…’I knew it was him!’. ROTFLMAO!!

          • sobe

            Who do you think you are talking to me like that !

          • Trey D

            Bro!! Its because you don’t even take the time to read up on it. Zellner is reaching deep into her barrel of tricks and she knows this is a hail mary. Remember how she first implied it was Zipperer? Lol!!! Now its the ex-boy friend. Ok….sure. Avery did it and it’s obvious she knows it.

          • Katherine DeBerry Race

            actually you are incorrect, and are doing a wonderful job of making a fool of yourself.
            It is most certainly NOT common practice to re-use a vile of blood from a prior case while the accused person is still in custody. Common practice would call for them to get a new vile of blood directly from him. Another point that objects to your point of view is that, that vile (on the off chance it WAS used in the proving of innocence) would’ve been resealed properly and in a new vile that did not have a puncture wound in it (not doing so could allow air and bacteria to grow and contaminate evidence). Lenk and Colburn were both directly related to the case in 1985 and have both been deposed and proven to have buried evidence that would prove Avery’s innocence. Them being involved in the second case, in a county they are not even officers of, is already a huge conflict of interest and a huge no no. Colburn called in the license plate of Theresa Holbach’s car, its color, make and model, after she had been reported missing but BEFORE her car was found.. yet no report? (see a pattern here? this dude obviously has no issue burying evidence, why is planting it so far fetched?) The ex boyfriend was given access to the Avery property, misidentified himself multiple times to gain access to the property, did not sign into the log at the front of the property, was able to log into her username, obtain her voicemail password, and effectively delete messages from himself that could have possibly been incriminating. He had a history of being abusive and exerting “stalkerish behavior”. He often visited her property frequently without invite, and in general inserted himself into her life much more than he should’ve.. yet not once was he considered a suspect. Was not asked for an alibi, was not asked anything for that matter.

            Avery and Dassey being innocent is really not that far fetched considering the evidence of the Manitowac county being corrupt as all get out..
            I mean, coincidences happen… but that many coincidences, highly unlikely.
            All in all, officers Lenk and Colburn played a role in this.
            There is no doubt in my mind.

          • Trey D

            OMG! You are wrong on every single point! The vial WAS used to exonerate him from the rape conviction. How can you be so utterly ignorant? And it was NOT resealed correctly. Even Zellner states exactly what I say. And she states that the cops did NOT plant evidence. She said the ex-boy friend and an unknown accomplish did it all. Good lord girl, read up on it already!

            Colburn and Lenk WERE NOT INVOLVED IN THE ORIGINAL RAPE INVESTIGATION! Neither worked for the Manitowac police department at the time. Geezus you are completely misinformed. Neither one of them was proven guilty or even accused of “burying evidence”. Colburn was the one who reported that the Manitowac police may have convicted the wrong man! You are a complete fool who knows nothing of this case.

          • Cm2323

            He didn’t report it til Avery was being released. That’s when he went to his superiors and they told him to write it up. Your right clown they didnt work for the Manitowac police department… they worked for the sheriff. I guess you get your rocks off calling people names on the internet.

          • Trey D

            He reported it long before Avery was released. He wrote it up after Avery was released. Got it Clown?

      • Tom

        I need to find a pair of these gloves that are too tough to get cut with a knife!!… Maybe the same knife used to stab the victim and slice his own finger.

  • Jessica Rae

    By the way, its Ken Kratz***

  • raffa

    THEORY NR.4 – Hillegas has definetively something to hide!!

  • Kaitain

    Wait, a shell CASING had Halbach’s DNA on it? What’s the hypothesis there? That she loaded it into Avery’s rifle herself?

    • JB

      Yes, but this was found in March, six months (did you catch that, SIX MONTHS!!!) after the initially searches. Who had access to Avery’s garage and Teresa’s DNA left in the Rav4 as well as Avery confiscated gun during this time? We know the Manitowoc PD did. So again, we are left with reasonable doubt.

      • JB

        Also, if gun shots were fired, why didn’t anyone hear them? Wouldn’t it have been very loud?

      • Kaitain

        I thought that was a bullet, not a casing.

        • JB

          Oh yes, you are correct Kaitain. The bullet. As for the shell casings they apparently found 11 in the garage. I have yet to find the date when they were found, if they in fact matched the .22 Avery owned, and if they had any DNA on them. Let us know if you find anything and I’ll do the same.

  • David

    Did you see the picture (I believe during the testimony of woman who found the car) of the salvage yard from above? It had labels of different things on the property. One label said “Car Crusher.” I almost fell off the couch when I saw that.

    So the supposedly guilty guy has a car crusher (plus every tool needed to cut a car apart in a couple hours) at his disposal. But after he allegedly murders Ms. Halbach he “hides” the car rather than crush it and cut it up?

    This case is so laughable it is sad. In the US if you are poor you will get screwed at some point by the legal system.

  • Michael Thomas Elchin

    It’s just awful fishy that in the beginning of jury deliberations 7 of 12 were for not guilty…I can see 2,3 being swayed but 7? Then one that was going to stay not guilty has a family emergency? To me there is just too much bs that took place in this trial and at the least should be granted a new one with different judge,jury prosecutors

    • JB

      I agree Micheal, plus two of the juror’s where directly related to Manitowoc County employees. There is already one juror who has stepped forward saying they thought Avery was framed by the police and that they made their guilty vote under duress. Also the juror that was dismissed, Richard Mahler, spoke of the same kind of thing.

  • Lester

    Whether you believe him or them or not, there was not enough scientific evidence period, natural physical evidence. It was mishandled from the 1st trial, I am outraged at the legal system and how this has progressed over the years. In my opinion, I would have removed everyone that lead the investigation team to the piece of work prosecutor ( Karma has a funny way hitting you) I don’t Steve Avery or Brenden, but going off majority of the evidence, I would come back with not guilty verdict ( doesn’t mean he is innocent) just not enough evidence at that given time. There are a ton of theories online and rumors. What concerns me is anyone looking into another suspect NOW or has been, just in case they are wrong AGAIN!! I know if travelling stay away from Wisconsin not because of the residents, solely because of the law enforcement – They’ll pin anything on you!

  • JB

    Does anyone else find it incredibly bizarre that Cheif Deputy Eugene Kusch had the framed sketch with the mugshot of Steven Avery hanging in his office even after Avery was proved innocent?

    • Meghan

      Yes..kinda creepy. Was that the only sketch he ever made? And was he trained/certified to make a composite sketch? It always seemed way more technical to me…but that could be cuz of tv and movies. 🙂 and as an artist myself..I would think you had ho have some prior skills.

      • JB

        Don’t they usually do the sketch as the victim describes the person? Or is that like you say, just something we see on film?

        • Meghan

          Not sure? I was thinking of Angela from Bones, except they are scientists and Dr’s that work for the Smithsonian in conjunction with the FBI. I would love to think that we have awesome crime scene technology…but I can tell you in 2005 I was manually printing crime scene photos at Walgreens (I was head of photo dept…not fun seeing fried crispy bodies). But I was shocked..don’t they have labs for this?? How is it I am developing 35m film in 4×6 glossies for Police.

          • JB

            Wow, that’s shocking Meghan! I’m guessing things would be different now that everything is so digital?

          • Meghan

            Yes I was at the end of a cusp for films being developed, I am sure now they can use a digital camera and print their own pics. It is still weird, I will never forget because the woman who died that I processed the film of…I knew her as a customer at Walgreens.

    • Laurie Anne

      Yeah, the very one that he traced from Steven’s first mugshot? What a tool.

      • JB

        Why would anyone want something like that to hang in their office?

        • Laurie Anne

          I guess he was proud of it, like all those other slugs were so proud of their handiwork that they did it all again!

          • JB

            So weird!

  • Michael Thomas Elchin

    To me even if alot was left out from what I’ve seen and read I’ve seen enough to make me believe that he could have been framed by the county…I can think of 36,000,000 reasons why he could have been framed. People have to relize the kind of one horse town, good old boy police department we are dealing with here. Aside from bankrupting the county alot of jobs and pensions which stood to be lost in the aftermath of a lawsuit of that magnitude. So yea I strongly believe that the manitowoc county police department ,which had no business being in home on the property during very well could have framed him. If you watch these clowns,police,detectives,and the prosecutor during the trial they just seemed like they were full of it. To me they seemed to be lying. Not to mention the intrrogation of Brandon dassey should have been thrown out…he was clearly persuaded and taken advantage of, they were clearly coaching him to a false confession. They knew he was slow and took advantage of him. They were out to get this guy and they got him

  • Meghan

    These comments are better than the article! I am proud that we have all contributed to this post!

  • maria c

    her ex boyfriend was searching avery’s property.. he could plant everything

  • Blkqwn7

    I would definitely go with theory #3. I sure hate thinking or believing that the Sheriff or any law enforcer could murder an innocent person,, and then frame someone else for it. But, one thing your theory #3 is missing is that this law enforcement has a practice, that we learned of from the documentary, ‘Making Of A Murderer,’ and it is, if they believe a person is guilty they will watch them and place them under surveillance. We learned this when it came out from Manitowoc law enforcers that they were watching the real rapist of the first woman that Avery was falsely accused of raping. How are we to truly fathom, that at the same time that Avery was suing the local government, that he would murder of a woman who could have easily been traced back to him. He was going to win and win big and he knew it, but at this same time he thought it was a good idea to murder and rape. Rape, a crime that he was accused of falsely doing once before! I don’t believe in coincidences. Not at all.

  • Sanchioso

    Scott Tadyk and Bobby Dassey are the real killers, but Manitowoc’s hard-on for Steve Avery blinded them.

  • JB

    If you google it you can read all about it. I think episode 10 also included it.

  • Chioni Ramsey

    One question I had, that was never answered, was if Teresa was really killed the way they say, wouldn’t someone, besides Brendan, have heard these supposed loud screams? There were more than just Steven and Brendan on the property, Bobby said he was taking a shower, Scott was supposedly there too. At some point, they all would have heard her. Also, there is NO WAY that if she was killed in the garage, like the prosecution says, that Steven could clean up so well that the only evidence they could find was a bullet. Not alone or with the help of 10 people. No way. Even if Steven killed her, to me, there was not enough evidence to convict him or Brendan.

    • JB

      If it happened like the police and prosecution said then yes it seems like someone would have heard screaming and especially the gun shots. And I agree, even if Steven did do it, there’s not enough convincing evidence to convict him.

  • Dragos White

    I strongly believe Steven Avery is innocent. The amount of inconsistencies in the
    Prosecution case is mind numbing. I have seen only the Netflix documentary and read a little bit aside on the internet and beside the various things already
    mentioned before, something is really funny here…Out of the 3 critical points
    of any murder case, (body, motive and murder weapon) there is no Motive and no Murder Weapon being presented…Just because Steven killed a cat when he was young and stupid and made some strange actions towards a woman (who, granted, was talking crap behind this back) doesn’t prove that he is capable of
    murder.

    It is true that he spent 18 years in the prison for the first sexual assault which he never committed and the documentary says nothing about what happened to him during those 18 years in prison so yeah, there may be a possibility that he turned crazy or evil and killed that woman.

    But in all fairness, this doesn’t matter anymore. He has served his time for any
    wrongdoings he may have committed and a guilty man will not fight the system
    with all his powers and not try to become a law expert in prison just for
    fun…I am 100% sure he is innocent.

    Who might have murdered the poor woman? There are here 5 good theories indeed…(or 4 if we do not count Steven being guilty)…I think we do not have all pieces of the puzzle in our hands to decide this…but I would think that the police was definitely involved in planting evidence. The blood vial, the bullet, the key….not one of these critical evidences is untainted. As for the police not being involved in the murder and just opportunistically taking advantage of the murder committed by someone else…this is too big of a coincidence but not impossible.

    The truth is out there and for sure it will surface..I just pray for the sake of Steven and Brendan that this happens sooner rather than later. Divine justice will be done but in the meantime earthly justice has to happen too…The White House mentioned that these cases are not federal cases and that the President cannot interfere but I think the White House should look at this from a different perspective. Leaving these cases at the mercy of the local governor will just delay further the resolution…no power will destroy itself by admitting the system it governs is corrupt. Someone more objective is needed to take a hard look at the whole case and the White House is definitely in a position to support the appointment of an independent investigator who could oversee the retrial.

    The image of the American justice system is at stake in front of the entire world…this documentary has been seen around the world and the pressure is mounting…

    May God have mercy on the souls of Steven, Brendan and Teresa!

  • Angela

    This extra evidence of the cat was in the first episode of the series. It’s not new evidence. I’m a huge cat lover and I recall getting very upset over hearing this. Go back and rewatch.

  • Angela

    I also don’t understand the charge of an ex felon in possession of a gun. He was exonerated. He was not an ex felon and should have every right to own and operate a gun. Can someone please explain this?

    • Jfrn

      Wow! I’ve never even considered that. Something to look into. Great point!

  • Emma

    I get bad vibes from the brother honestly. He at least knew something because it’s not normal behaviour not to question that kind of vague, or in my opinion non existing evidence, it would be in his best interest to catch the real killer.
    It’s someone in the family, the ex or the roomie, for sure.

  • JABE

    Can I ask something? In the States, you can sue someone that a civil court deems responsible for a loved one’s death for a lot of money, right?

    Like how OJ (despite getting off in the state court – way to go again, Justice system) was found culpable for his ex-wife’s murder and ordered to pay damages?

    So, given that at the time of Theresa’s death, everybody thought Steven Avery was about to become a multimillionaire, does that provide Theresa’s family (I’m looking at her super suspicious brother here) with motive to point the finger at (in spite of so much reasonable doubt) or even frame Steven for her death (whether accidental or intentional)?

    • Jfrn

      Interesting point. Never thought about that.

    • vb

      I don’t think he was awarded millions, seems like the settlement amount was 300,00? But I’m not sure.

  • Jennifer

    I guess my question is – if they found his blood in her car, that means he had a cut on him somewhere. Where is the documentation that he had one or several cuts/scratches? Has that been reported and I missed it? If his blood was found, so should cuts and scrapes on him.

  • JB

    Hi Doge, I can’t find where your comment went when you said something to the effect of how can anyone in this discussion say they’ve read ALL the evidence, 1000’s of pages of documentation. You said we are just going based off the documentary and online articles.
    I can not speak for everyone but I don’t believe for a second I’ve read ALL the facts available on this case sitting at my computer in Canada here. I also don’t know who the killer is. But what I can tell you, is the so called huge pieces of evidence clearly outlined recently by Prosecutor Ken Kratz in response to this documentary that apparently convicts Steven Avery and which is left out of the film, every single one of those pieces of evidence, contain reasonable doubt as well. The Prosecutor of all people needs to be able to provide convincing evidence without reasonable doubt and he hasn’t been able to offer that which is one of the reasons this case is becoming more and more popular and even a documentary was made about it.

    • Doge

      Hey there JB.

      I imagine the comment might have been deleted. People taking offense to an opposing view and flagging it? I don’t know. Not here to claim people are framing me!!

      Sounds like you are employing some critical thinking on this so I commend you for that.
      It’s fair enough to call reasonable doubt on a piece of evidence here and there but when they all add up and the idea of a frame job or conspiracy become too complicated it’s time to think things over.
      Like in the Adnan Syed case from Serial, if Steven isn’t guilty well then he sure was unlucky that day for the sheer amount of coincidences.

      • JB

        I get what you are saying that this is a complicated case and it’s time to rethink things over. But what framing job for murder involving two people would be simple?
        I’m interested in hearing what evidence you think all adds up? Do you believe Teresa was cuffed to the bed? Do you think she was killed in the garage? If so, where is the proof of all this?
        We already know Avery was framed by the M. County Police before right? This time though, there were 36 million more reasons for the M. County Police to frame him right? Does it get much simpler than the last two sentences?

  • Jason Kroese

    If the ones who are saying look at all the evidence even the ones not presented in the one sided documentary are all forgetting before one of the jurors left for medical reasons, the votes were seven (7) innocent , three (3) guilty and two (2) undecided. The excused juror even admitted to saying that the majority believed he was innocent , however, the three that believed he was guilty were pressuring the others to vote guilty and that they didn’t trust Steven Avery. They even went to the point that they said, hopefully they Avery’s don’t go out to eat in whatever town (Chitlin in believe) because of the backlash they could face.

    • Doge

      The excused juror seemed like an unstable media wh*re. I’d believe the MSD over him and that is saying something!
      Also jury polls are totally unreliable.

      • JB

        Hi Doge, Check this out…
        Two juror’s were directly related to Manitowoc County employees! One was the father of an officer and one was a husband to an office clerk, both employed by Manitowoc County. Please feel free to look it up for yourself.
        Also, it was announced about a week ago that a juror has stepped forward saying they thought Steven Avery was framed by the police and made their guilty vote under duress. It’s also not the only time a juror came forward to talk about what went on in there. Richard Mahler, who was excused from jury duties after a family emergency (but not a death like the judge specifically says in court), spoke of the same kind of thing. So the jury sounds as convoluted as everything else related this case.

        • Doge

          “It’s also not the only time a juror came forward to talk about what went on in there.”

          What you mean like after a hack job documentary/movie comes out with an unexpected amount of popularity and its possibly in their interests financially or for fame to say something?

          I’m truly shocked.

          • JB

            What I mean, is we have two jurors who should not have sat on that jury because they were related to Manitowoc County PD. It’s one of the many violations to Avery’s constitutional rights.
            Also, when a juror steps forward saying they made their guilty vote under duress and in fact think Avery was framed by the MPD, don’t you think that’s worth looking into? Maybe it’s like you say, they are getting paid to say this, but maybe not. We don’t and can’t know the answer with the info we have yet. It needs to be looked into.
            As for Richard Mahler, his experience is also worth looking into, no? Please explain? He was dismissed for a death in the family, but no one in fact died. He states he thought there was enough reasonable doubt to not convict Avery and then his step daughter is in an auto accident and he gets dismissed for her death? The next day the jury reaches a guilty verdict. It’s worth looking into. How could it not?

          • Doge

            Both the defense and the prosecution were out of jury dismissals so as far as I know its fair game after that point.
            The place only has a population of 80,000 so you gotta work with what you got.

            “We don’t and can’t know the answer with the info we have yet.”
            How can you say that yet still hold such a strong belief in what you’ve said already?

            You’re pretending to be impartial one moment and then making veiled accusations the next based on hear say. Not unlike the documentary!

          • JB

            I didn’t know that, great point! I don’t like that you’re telling me I’m pretending to be impartial though. I am trying to figure out a mess of a case. That is all.
            So what you are saying is that having two juror’s related to Manitowoc County PD, which typically would be a violation of constitutional rights gets waved due to a population issue where they got stuck with a limited selection of jurors? Am I getting this right?

            Do we know how many people are employed by the Manitowoc County PD?
            Is it not still interesting/suspicious/coincidental how in a town of 80,000 they had no choice but to use two jurors that ended up being related to employees at Manitowoc County PD?

            And on the other issue, this juror only stepped forward very recently. It’s in favor of Avery so far. This is all we know Doge. It doesn’t make Avery’s case stronger as of yet, but it might. Time will tell.

          • Doge

            Explain to me how it is a violation of his constitutional rights?
            Fair trial?
            So you know for a fact these two jurors are biased and planted themselves in the jury pool to taint the verdict and denied him that right?
            Why didn’t the defense call for a mistrial in that case?

            Time likely won’t tell because there is no talk of him getting a new trial or even a post convictions hearing!
            What will happen is that people will get bored and move onto something else.
            Case in point: Adnan Syed in Serial.
            Sure a few people still follow him but most couldn’t care less anymore.
            I reckon the next big thing is gonna be Robert Durst from “The Jinx”s upcoming trial for murder.

          • JB

            Yes, the right to a fair trial. And no, we can not confirm or deny these two jurors are biased and planted themselves in the jury pool to taint the verdict. It still all seems to come back to reasonable doubt with every aspect of this case so far.
            Yes, why didn’t the defense call for a mistrial regarding the two jurors? Do you know why? I don’t. Do we know if it was before, during or after the trial that defense knew juror’s had ties to the Manitowoc County PD?
            Chicago lawyer Kathleen Zellner is a specialist in wrongful convictions, and she has agreed to represent Avery along with Tricia Bushnell, the legal director of the Midwest Innocence Project. The announcement was made last Friday.

          • Doge

            I feel you’re stretching the definition of reasonable doubt a bit thin.
            Sounds more like evidence of absence

            “If Alice bakes a pie, she will place the pie on her window-sill.
            She did not place a pie on her window-sill.
            Therefore, Alice did not bake a pie.”

            I don’t know why they didn’t call for a mistrial.
            I’m going to be a bold guess and say it’s because legally it was legit and did not warrant for such action. You would think that would have been made a bigger issue of at the time and in recent weeks but doesn’t seem like it.
            Again I can only guess that is because it met the requirements.

            I’m aware of the announcement you mentioned but in my opinion(and little else) I just don’t see anything coming of it. I might be overly skeptical here but I just see it as a publicity stunt.

          • JB

            How are two jurors that are directly related to employees of Manitowoc County Police Department stretching reasonable doubt thin exactly? There is reasonable doubt they would be unbiased.

          • Doge

            Still beating that dead horse? Would someone on the jury who was upper middle class be biased because they would think less of the working class?
            Yeah lets just stretch reasonable doubt so thin that it has little meaning anymore outside of
            “I don’t feel this was fair so I’m claiming reasonable doubt”

          • JB

            Doge, check out Avery’s appeal he submitted just before he received his new legal representation, it pertains to the two juror’s relationships to employees of Manitowoc County Police Department. It was filed Monday, just two days ago. Thoughts?

          • Doge

            My thoughts are this.
            He’s taking advantage of his new found and bound to be short lived popularity and clutching at straws nothing more.
            My question is, why now?
            Why not 10 years ago when it was relevant?

          • JB

            Looks like my response is ‘pending’, not sure why but I hope it eventually come through. In the meantime, there’s been a recent development with Avery’s ex-fiance. She is speaking out against Avery and believes he is guilty.

          • Doge

            Maybe its a conspiracy by the Sheriffs department to silence you!
            Hadn’t heard that will look it up now

          • JB

            Ha ha, Doge 🙂

          • Doge

            Just heard the snippet interview from tonights Nancy Grace show with Jodi
            Does not look good for Steven.
            I dont think she has any reason to lie

          • JB

            It looks very bad for Avery based on the snippet. We need to know a lot more information about this and so many other things and so far it’s continuing to come in… It’s going to be interesting.

          • Jfrn

            She has every reason to lie, just as you mentioned me he was only working on his case because of his new found popularity. Money would be a big motivator, don’t you think?

          • Michael Thomas Elchin

            I wouldn’t believe anything coming out of her mouth…what she run out of beer money so she reaches out to who other than Nancy grace?idk

          • JB

            I don’t know what to believe other than he shouldn’t be in prison due to the police botching up the investigation. Everything else seems very much up in the air.

          • JB

            Also I found out that yes in fact both Buting and Strang (so I am assuming Avery too) new going in to trial that 2 jurors had direct ties to employees of Manitowoc County Police Department. They chose not to try for a change of venue. They knew the backgrounds of those on the jury.

          • Jfrn

            He has been working on his case since day one. Sure, he is getting his ten minutes of fame, however, that’s just what it is, being brought to light, as he was working on an appeal since the beginning, you just didn’t know about it.

          • Jfrn

            Actually, it should’ve been a mistrial when they dismissed the juror after deliberations had started. Once deliberations start, jurors are not to be dismissed and then replaced. Just a little FYI for you.

  • savnlives

    I believe the defense provided more than enough evidence to produce “reasonable doubt” in spite of the evidence left out of the documentary; therefore, if SA was found “not guilty” none of the other discussions matter. SA is a simple minded person that has difficulty articulating his feelings and thoughts. His story is consistent. I don’t think he is sin free by any means, however, I don’t think he killed TH either; JMO

  • Deb

    I can’t take any evidence collected by MCPD because it’s suspect. That pretty much takes care of ALL DNA evidence, doesn’t it? It’s just a theory, but I suspect Bobby and Tadych committed the act but Colburn found the Rav 4 on 11/3 and he and Lenk ran with it. Why also when that “scared to death” woman in fear of her safety yet all but gloating on the phone when she called the cops to report she’d found the vehicle, his first question was “Are there plates on it?” I think it was before she said she was at the Avery place, so he wouldn’t assume she’s calling from a junkyard. Why didn’t he ask what is the plate number? I still can’t rule out anyone, thanks to the lousy job of collecting evidence, corruption and misleading statements by Ken K, who is a truly despicable person.

  • JB

    What? In the end, it isn’t worth arguing? Two men are in prison that shouldn’t be, a woman is dead, our justice system is at times flawed and corrupt… And Officer Chad who? from where exactly? can’t be bothered to write in point form the evidence left out of the film that convicts these two men?

    • carbolaw

      I agree. People defending the conviction are missing the point – the doctoring of evidence and the evidence that casts doubt casts much more than even a reasonable doubt, but that is all it must cast and this the conviction was a travesty. I even started by looking at the prosecutions arguments about what strong evidence was excluded from
      the documentary and this made it clear that there WAS reasonable doubt. Just for a moment they need to ask themselves how would they feel
      If their son was convicted of a murder based on the evidence in this case?

      • chad

        Remember, this was a JURY trial. The jury made the ultimate decision….not the police, and not the D.A.

        • chad

          I agree, from what the documentary presented, there was definitely reasonable doubt. But, again, the documentary only presented about 25% of the actual trial evidence. BUT, the documentary did what it set out to do. There are gaps, problems, bad people, etc… in our justice system. I believe Avery is guilty. I believe Dassey was taken serious advantage of by his uncle. I also believe there was some corruption.

          • Patrick Wells

            There’s absolutely ZERO evidence that Dassey did anything.

          • Doge

            Except if you listen to his full 4 hour 2nd confession on top of his original confession ones it seems pretty likely he was involved and MAM cut and edited it to make it look like the cops were twisting his arm. Did you try that?
            How about that Brendans mom thought he was involved also at the start? She just didn’t realise how much which is why she changed her tune when he was looking at life.

        • Janet Corbett

          Seems the jury like ve mean dassey were bullyed and coersed.

        • Bill Hendershot

          The jury did in 85 too…just sayin.

    • chad

      Yes JB, it is not worth it to argue with YOU guys. If you want to do you due diligence and explore the evidence further, that is on you. You want to argue….which is fine, but I dont have time for that. Are you ready to whole-heartedly address the problems in our justice system JB? Please do….because it works both ways. An officer was killed on my department by a criminal who kept getting light sentences for weapon charges

      • chad

        …… (sorry. Accidentally posted early). A 5 year old girl was got by a stray rifle round from a criminal i had just arrested on a gun charge a month earlier. The justice system does have problems, JB. And i continue to work and try and fix it every day. I am actually out here trying to fix the problem. So when i say it’s not worth it, i am referring to arguing on this platform. I appreciate your comments. I appreciate your arguments. But PLEASE, if you are going to talk the talk, then i assume you are taking initiative, beyond these posts, to try and fix the problems. I know i am. I take offense to you questioning my commitment. Ive watched a partner die, ive seen dozens of innocent people killed, and i have struggled to keep fighting the good fight….but im still here. Im not corrupt, im not “dirty”, im not “bad”, im one of the 97% of police officers that are honest and here for the right reasons.

        • JB

          I hope you are everything you claim to be Chad. It seems that you would rather argue over and over that there is evidence that convicts Avery the documentary has left out but provide nothing that supports this. Why is that? People in this discussion ARE talking about evidence that was left out of the documentary and there is still reasonable doubt. We have yet to see something where reasonable doubt does not exists. Why even join this conversation if you “can’t be bothered”. Why go on a radio show if you “can’t be bothered”? You’re willing to talk about other criminals and victims that have nothing to do with the topic at hand, and make assumptions about people in this discussion? Far out Officer Chad. Wouldn’t it just be easier to write your list so we can see what you think you’ve got that nails Avery? I asked your last name and your location because at the moment, your comments and attitude does not exactly lump you into the 97% Police Officers you mentioned. You as a self proclaimed open minded Officer claim the right man is in jail so where is your proof? That’s what everyone wants to hear and yet you can not provide it. Not even Prosecutor Ken Kratz in a response to the documentary where he lists the missing evidence, can provide it without the presence of reasonable doubt? This is part of the reason why the documentary was made… This is part of the reason why this case is gaining popularity…

          • chad

            Ask yourself why the jury convicted him….is the jury corrupt? Why are Appellate Courts denying this case? Are the Appellate Courts corrupt? Are all of the OTHER agencies that had a part in this investigation corrupt? That is a HUGE conspiracy for nobody to spill the beans.
            I get it…..my opinion is in the minority. So i put a bullseye on myself. You have your opinion on his innocence, and I have mine. Im not the all-knowing…….NOT EVEN CLOSE. But from what I have read, and from what i have been told from officers in the surrounding counties in Wisconsin (counties not involved), the right man was convicted. I would have loved for the officers and detectives on the case to interview and eliminate EVERY possible suspect. Unfortunately they didnt. Im not here to argue, or carry a banner for Avery’s guilt. I just think they got the correct person. Documentaries arent all fair and balanced….i firmly believe this documentary leaned heavily towards Avery’s innocense.

          • Deb

            I’m sorry to say, I think there is more corruption and more harassment that goes on than perhaps you’re aware of. You’re inside the department. Perhaps you don’t see it or your department is full of honest cops who can resist baser notions. It’s a scary World for us in the public, not knowing if the officer that just came to my door is going to be ok, or throw his power around just because he can.

          • chad

            Deb, i dont disagree with you. There are some bad apples out there. I dont mind being outspoken about that crap. It gives the majority of us that are honest, a bad name. I would categorize Lenk as one of those that needs to be looked at. But i still believe Avery is guilty.

          • Deb

            I’m honestly not sure if he is or not, but I’m honestly sure I’ll never know for sure now and that’s sad when you think about it. I hope I didn’t come off as too much of a smarty pants. I have that tendency, but I’ll own it!

          • chad

            Nope. Not at all. You are passionate in your beliefs. People can have different opinions on the matter. That is why the documentary has been so popular. It makes me sick that we dont know what really happened. I just happen to think they have the right man…..hopefully we will learn more some day.

          • SNL

            I have to agree with Deb. An officer who frequently patrolled our subdivision stopped me for speeding. He lied about the radar. In court he could not prove how fast I was going (camera showing speed was broken on the patrol car according to him). I was not speeding. Local town judge ignored the lack of evidence and said I had to pay the ticket. I appealed to county circuit court and won. My attorney informed me the officer told him it was all because the officer thought I had “flipped him off” (which I didn’t.) It was a total waste of everyone’s time and money, all because this officer was angry. Officers are sometimes ruled by emotion and can and do lie. On the other hand, there are also honest and good officers who help and protect the public.

          • chad

            I didnt disagree with Deb. However, I’m not naive, and im not blind. I can see why you might think it’s a much more frequent occurrence. The media shows the 3% about 97% of the time. So the public starts to think corruption/bad officers are more frequent than they really are. Im sure many on this forum will disagree, but it’s true. Police have hundreds of thousands of interactions with the public on a daily basis.

          • JB

            Chad, I don’t know if he is innocent or guilty. I would like to see evidence that without reasonable doubt can convict him. No one is providing that evidence so far. Therefore, he should not be in prison regardless of whether he is innocent or guilty. Again, you refuse to provide any of us in this discussion with answers based on what you’ve read. You say “from what i have been told from officers in the surrounding counties in Wisconsin (counties not involved), the right man was convicted.” Is this your argument??? Is this your proof???

            Would you be comfortable making your identity known? This is getting interesting.

            We can both agree the investigation was botched so no need to banter there right?

            As for the jury, two jurors were directly related to Manitowoc County employees. One was the father of an officer and one was married to an office clerk, both employed by Manitowoc County. We can not be certain without reasonable doubt that these two jurors were unbiased.
            Also, it was announced about a week ago that a juror has stepped forward saying they thought Steven Avery was framed by the police and made their guilty vote under duress. So we have yet to find out more about this. It’s also not the only time a juror came forward to talk about what went on in there. Richard Mahler, who was dismissed for a death in the family, but no one in fact died. He states he thought there was enough reasonable doubt to not convict Avery and then his step daughter is in an auto accident and he gets dismissed for her death when she is alive? The next day the jury reaches a guilty verdict. How can we trust this jury without reasonable doubt?

            As for appeals, Avery exhausted ALL of his appeals last time around and finally after 18 years of prison was found innocent.
            Two days ago Avery’s most recent appeal was filed, it was submitted before he received his new representation. So we will see what happens there.

            I don’t know the extent of corruption at play here, but their is a growing audience that wants to know the answer to this question as well as many other questions involving this case.

          • chad

            No. Too much cop hate in the world. I can tell you i am not employed by or live in the state of Wisconsin, if that is what you are getting at. I live quite a few states away, but live in the midwest. And I’m not too proud to be proven wrong. I believe they have the correct man. I also believe Lenk has a couple secrets. Manitowoc put themselves in this mess. And they need to explain any, and all misconduct. However, i believe the correct person is in jail for the murder of Teresa Halbach.

          • JB

            You fail Officer Chad. 🙁

          • chad

            Ok. Sorry

          • chad

            Richard Mahler seems just as shady as everyone else in this whole mess. An “international recording artist”? I question his motives. And i really hope he is being truthful in his cause.

          • Mary Bragg

            For what it’s worth, at least in my market, Dr. Phil, who is very familiar with the justice system, is looking at the documentary and everything that was left out. Part 2 is on Monday, at least in the area I live in.

          • Harry Wood

            LET ME TELL YOU HOW TO MURDER SOMEONE AND GET AWAY WITH IT, I HAVE TO HIDE THE VICTIMS CAR THAT’S EASY. I HIDE IT ON MY OWN PROPERTY. THEN THE SHELL FROM THE BULLET THAT KILLED THE PERSON I JUST LEAVE THAT ON MY GARAGE FLOOR. CLEVER AY. NOW THE GUN THAT WAS USED IL’E JUST HANG THAT ON MY WALL. SNEAKY HUH. THEN YOU BURN THE BODY OUTSIDE YOUR FRONT DOOR HE HE THEY WILL NEVER ISCOVER THAT.

          • Janet Corbett

            Corrupt..in a word, YES!

          • Sheri

            Let’s remember he was also found guilty of rape and spent 18 years of his life in prison. Also convicted by a jury presented with overwhelming evidence that he was guilty. But wait DNA exonerated this innocent man 18 years to late! So you see the judicial system failed this man once, I think it would be just as easy for them to fail him yet again!

          • Patrick Wells

            Juries make mistakes ALL THE TIME. And yes, Appellate Courts have SERIOUS issues.

        • Deb

          Oh, NOW I see. You’re an Officer. Some of the best people I know are Officers, but not all Officers are the best people. Had Manitowoc County bowed out of the investigation on 11-05, perhaps it would have made no difference but we’ll never know now. They should be held accountable. You can go on and on about evidence..but the County is suspect so all the evidence is as well.

          • chad

            Okie dokie

        • Janet Corbett

          Another argument…gun laws in America!! Seriously need to be reviewed.

    • chad

      Why would you ask my last name, “JB”?

  • Sanchioso

    What was the reason Judge Fox denied SA defense team from pursuing other suspects? Judge Fox, Judge Willis and DA Rohrer had a connection to the real killer…Scott Tadych…

    • chad

      I dont know the Judge’s reasoning for that. My thought is he wanted the case to be concise and direct. The problem is, that didn’t help reach a bulletproof conviction

    • Bcrew

      Because there was zero evidence to support it and you can’t just throw out wild accusations with nothing to support it.

      • Sanchioso

        Like potentially the murder weapon, past history, opportunity and a discredited alibi?

        • Bcrew

          The murder weapon was Avery’s, he’s the only one with the violent, lifelong criminal history, and he had no alibi. Tadrychs alibi wasn’t discrefited either. He had no motive.

          • Sanchioso

            Better check your evidence again…Avery’s .22 rifle was cleared of any DNA, while Tadych was trying to get rid of a .22 rifle, that never got checked because the defense couldn’t investigate …you obviously have turned a blind eye to Tadych past history…..he also had a connection to the Judge that conveniently banned any other investigation into other suspects. The bus driver that dropped off the Dassey kids discredited his and Bobby Dasseys alibis as incorrect in regards to the time they state.
            His.motive wouldve been similar if not.more than Averys….like kickbacks he may have received from Manitowoc County for his part in getting rid of the $36 mil lawsuit against them…but we’ll never because no one else was allowed to be investigated.

          • Bcrew

            DNA? Why would a gun have DNA on it? You are badly misinformed. A bullet with the victims DNA on it was linked to his gun that hung above his bed. There is not one shred of evidence in Tadrych and a mountain against Avery. It’s simply laughable. How exactly does one person’s potentially incorrect testimony discredit two other people’s. Tadrych had no motive and it’s likely he didn’t even know she’d be there or when. So the state paid Tadrych to kill her? LOL. Hysterical. You’ve been watching too much tv. The article I sent pretty much sums up the ludicrousness of the conspiract nonsense. Read it and explain how it’s possible.

          • Sanchioso

            DNA as in blood splatter?

          • Bcrew

            Are you seriously claiming that a gun would have splatter when fired from a distance? Wow

          • Sanchioso

            More.plausible to shoot her in the head close range in a confined cluttered room (like the garage)? Or was he standing on one end of the garage and TH at the other end? WOW.

          • Bcrew

            The only way he would get splatter on the gun is from
            point blank range. Silly. No one is claiming this. Stop watching CSI. Your conspiracy nonsense is hilarious.

          • Sanchioso

            Thanks Sherlock thats exactly what im implying. Someone claimed he shot her from a distance? That’s even sillier, shooting her at a distance when allegedly Avery and Brendan Dassey held her captive in his garage or bedroom??? .

          • Bcrew

            No one thinks he shot her at point blank range. No one. Not one person believes there should be blood on the gun but you. It makes no sense. He’s guilty as sin.

          • james barklow

            Lol

          • Bcrew

            Ditto

      • Scott

        Hey Bcrew! Just wondering what ties you to this case? Are you just incredibly committed to arguing with strangers on the internet or are you somehow linked to this on a personal level?

        • Bcrew

          Not connected to it in any way. I like justice to be done and can’t believe people fall for such obvious nonsense.

    • Rita

      Sooo true! I totally agree.

  • Anonymouse

    This is my rationalization after having seen 2 of the episodes and doing further research online.

    The Manitowoc County Sheriff’s Department had motive. They were potentially going to be responsible for paying out a lot of money to Steven Avery in a Civil lawsuit that was not covered by Insurance. It also happened before that could happen, which really should have put more light onto the Department for having done something.

    Although I do not know what the motive would have been for Teresa Halbachs ex-boyfriend to have killed her, I do believe he ‘may’ be responsible for her death. I find it extremely weird that Teresa’s current love interest (at the time) and her ex-boyfriend were both partaking in the search for her together. I also find the ex-boyfriends statements made about the Avery Compound to be disturbing. He describes a place with Crime Scene Tape and Security, as though he knew what it looked like even though he claims he had not been there. The compound was essentially unguarded for 8 days during the investigation by a Sheriff’s Department. He also makes a statement about how he cannot comment on things that he never would have been told he cannot comment on. Why talk to the media whatsoever if wasn’t allowed to comment on most of the things? He was acting like he had already been a person of interest who was advised by a lawyer to keep his mouth shut, which I find very strange. Obviously he had no lawyer, but if this was pre-meditated then he would have thought that scenario through and that would then explain why he said that.

    I also wanted to add that while watching the interviews with Teresa’s current love interest (at the time) that I suspected something was off when he was already acting like she was dead and it had only been two days. Why would he already make statements that he wanted to move onward from this if they didn’t know what had actually happened to her yet. That is not typical of someone grieving for someone who is MISSING.

  • Winston

    Why not the roomate?

  • Robbie Overman

    Colburn/Lenk. Too many things involving them. Esp Lenk. Hate to think this way. Used to really trust our justice and executive branches, but I’ve been around the block regarding the system. Studied Law, have experienced cases where attorneys locked arm and brutally and skillfully destroyed a person who needed the help of the attorney paid. Money exchanged hands. The judge in two cases in the same district courthouse were dirty. It happens all the time. Probably everywhere. This case won’t change anything. Powerful or monied persons will always win in court. ALWAYS. Because most judges and attorneys are materialistic and many are also egoists. Sad, but the truth. Made me choose against capital murder because the court too often gets it wrong, intentionally or not…….. but sometimes intentionally. sad.

  • Ser Barristan Selmy

    If the Key found in his room had ONLY his DNA on it, and not in the form of blood, then it was most likely planted as it should have had Teresa’s DNA as well. Which would also mean that whoever planted that could have also planted his DNA on the hood latch.

    If the Bullet found 5 months late came from his rifle, guess who had his rifle for the 5 months he was in custody…

    The DA did not prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt… there was plenty of reasonable doubt. I think the biggest error on the DA’s part was claiming he killed her in the garage. The absence of Teresa’s DNA in the trailer/garage is enough in my mind to say the DA couldn’t prove his guilt.

  • Mel

    I just do not think he would be so stupid to do it and leave all the evidence right on his property and also not try to hide it when he had the time and oportunity to do so and he was also about to get a lot of money, he Did not get a fair trial, the evidence was so contaminares from time to time to the point that they could have played the way they wanted to, In my opinión it was the exboyfriend, the mailbox thing sounds very suspicious, and also his attitude he was way to involved in all the search, the investigation and also acted extremely suspicious when he took the stand

  • Katelin

    Does no one suspect the brother? That guy seemed super guilty! It really seemed like him and the ex boy friend were hiding something and the cops were so sure it was Steve they planted the evidence. Also, the brother totally injected himself into the investigation and there’s footage of him talking about the grieving process varying in duration shortly after she was reported missing! Who says stuff like that unless they know she’s already gone?! I don’t know, it’s all speculation at this point, but it’s clear there was substantial reasonable doubt.

  • chad

    I can agree with that. I just wish they would have shown much more of the trial footage.

    • Blake W

      once you separate yourself from the documentary and start reading actual documentation from the trial and watching the full length trial footage, the reasonable doubt continues. not one person(s) can be convicted based on it.

  • There should have been a mistrial declared as soon as proceedings began, if not for one, singular reason: Manitowoc County tainted any and all evidence the moment they involved themselves in the investigation. They had to know that a conflict of interest would instantly weaken their case, unless, of course…they were assured that it wouldn’t before they began. Then it becomes a flat-out frame-up. Period.

  • Blake W

    for anyone that would like to read the full trial, it can be obtained from the manitowoc county clerk for $41.25 plus a $2.95 payment processing fee. it includes 373 documents totaling 12,737 pages. i conclude reasonable doubt.

    • Blake W

      the other sad component along with having two people in prison that shouldn’t be, a women that is dead, and a killer that is yet to be determined, this is our taxes at work here… the investigation, the trial… a lot of high paying salaries/pensions compared to the average american. the wisconsin innocence project who helped free steven avery last time was founded in 1998, and they have freed over 300 wrongful convictions in the state of wisconsin alone. now the midwest innocence project is helping steven avery with this case. that is also a lot of tax payers money to keep innocent people behind bars all these years. just think about all that for a minute.

    • JB

      It won’t let me post the direct links on here but there are a number of sites that have all the info including court docs, timelines, footage, photos, other arrests, etc. for free. Just google what you’re looking for and I’m sure you’ll find it while saving a couple trees! I agree Blake, reasonable doubt all the way. I still couldn’t tell you if Avery did it or not though. Even if he is guilty, then he should be off on a technicality due to the police doing such a hideous job.

  • Aj O’brian

    Not guilty Steven was framed because by the town because off the multimillion dollar’s he had coming “FREE STEVEN AVERY

    • Aj O’brian

      I wAtched all 10 episodes and that town is screwed up all of them are in breeds

  • EL-B

    They said she was sexually assaulted, how would they know that, the body had been burned and splintered.
    If they had cut throat and tortured her, where was all the blood? The mattress would have been saturated. There is no way they could have removed all the signs from the bedroom, especially with carpet on the floor. No signs of rope or chains have been tied attached to the bed.
    Someone (can’t remember who) commented the fire they had would not have burned hot enough to do that damage to the body.

  • Doge

    Unless I’m missing something in which case I apologize I don’t find it clear.
    First its about what I did and now about what you did or didn’t do?

  • Doge

    Ok “officer”, be as purposely vague as you want.
    Let me know when you want to have a discussion.

    • chad

      “Doge”, i am not being evasive. You made this statement, “Nah you watched a documentary/movie and read a few pro MAM articles online. Stop leading people on saying you “read all the facts”.
      You read everything from the trial? I doubt it”.

      Yes?

      I told you that you are making an incorrect assumption about what i did or didn’t do. Im not sure where your confusion is coming from.

      As for a conversation……im not so sure anymore. It seems to me people will believe what they want (which is absolutely fair), but when a person doesn’t agree with their opinion, they want to attack. It’s not a very productive forum. BUT i do appreciate the fact that you have been kinder than most.

      • Doge

        So you did read all the facts or at least have more access than most?
        Your other comments imply you didn’t so I’m not sure where this is going but point taken if you mean that someone on here could have higher access.
        Given most of what people are posting on here is just speculation I think it’s a safe bet to call someone out when they clearly seem to be relying on the documentary and personal theories that sound like they would be more fitting in a forum guessing what will happen in the next episode of True Detective than a discussion on a real murder where everything doesn’t neatly tie together in the end.

        Yes people will believe what they want to believe which as you said is fair but when confronted with additional information that they choose to deny or dismiss is unreasonable.

        • chad

          It’s an ongoing process for me. I dont think i have more access than most, in this forum. I am familiar with several CJ sites, because of my occupation…but they are all public. And yes, i have devoted several hours to reading more information about the case. I just have a hard time understanding how some can take this documentary as gospel. It had an absolute lean to promoting Avery’s innocence. I would absolutely encourage anybody who took the time to watch 10 hours of s documentary, to look, read, and learn further. I also wish people would stop verbally attacking police officers that post on these forums. Im not Lt Lenk! The guy has some serious issues he needs to address. I am Officer “whoever”. My opinions of dirty officers are the same as most, they disgust me. So give us a break, and let us interact and debate, without the name calling and general hate. (Not directed at you “Doge”)

          • Doge

            We’re on the same page when it comes to trying to encourage others to to look for other sources but just finding myself being shot down and even accused of working for MCSD in some capacity to sway public opinion.
            People seem pretty committed to believing that doc as gospel as you put it.
            If this is because later on they felt duped when more info came out and felt they had to commit to their original “verdict” to save face or possibly just lack the ability to think critically.

    • chad

      The bottom line, is this investigation was doomed from the beginning. Manitowoc County have themselves to blame for that. I will always support my brothers and sisters in blue. But their is a point when the line is crossed. Our jobs as law enforcement officers is to protect the public. We cant do our job successfully if a few bad people/cops are corrupt. How can the public trust us? My main objective is to let people know that 97% of Officers are doing their job well, and honestly. We want the rotten 3% out, just like everybody else.

      My opinion is that Avery murdered Teresa Halbach. That is ONLY an opinion. Manitowoc County did a disservice for the good the Criminal Justice System does in this country……i should be more specific,
      …..a few officers did the whole county, state, and country a disservice

      • Doge

        I agree the MCSD screwed up. Maybe not as much as the documentary would imply but screwed up nevertheless.
        For the most part I believe cops have a hard job to do and are not the people who actually create the laws so no cop hating here.

        We share the same opinion that he did it.
        I’m only offering my opinion on here and supporting it with what I can find in the public domain.
        Did you hear that the blood sample that was supposedly tampered with has been called into question now?
        Can’t post links here but google Marlene Kraintz prison nurse avery and you should pull up a few articles that are pretty interesting if nothing else.

        • chad

          I did not. I will absolutely check that out. I was quickly losing interest due to the backlash from this forum. But now im curious, again. I will look into that. Thank you! So here is my background….i have been an officer for 15 years. I work for a city department. The city’s population is close to a million. I have worked in the precinct with the highest violent crime rate my whole career. People that work this part of the city WANT to work. My wife is a homicide detective. She has been on for 12 years. So….that is the POV I am coming from.

          • Doge

            Sounds like quite the interesting career you’ve got going. All the best in future and stay safe.
            That journalist who wrote the piece on the blood vial writes a good piece looking at the theory that the cops framed Avery too and puts into perspective how hard it actually is to frame someone. Would take the wind out of anyones sails who flat out thinks the cops planted everything. I’m open to the idea they may have planted some evidence but not all of it. That would seem unrealistic even on a TV show.

          • Martha Turner

            I am not a nurse but I do know that when blood is drawn it is up to the nurse to report exactly how much blood was placed in the vial as well as the date and time of this particular evidence. So if any blood was taken from the vial in comparison to the blood found at the alleged site. I do think that from an outsider point of view that this would have been damning evidence and proof that blood was taken from this particular vial. Like I said I am not a nurse but I do believe that if there was blood missing from the vial that it would be noticed!!!

      • Marcia

        I agree on that one!

  • Bcrew

    They have closure. They know who did it and that he’s sitting in prison. Now if biased filmmakers wouldn’t try to profit off their sisters death, they could get a little more peace.

  • So it’s his fault!

  • Bcrew

    No they are not. Throwing crap on the wall and seeing it it sticks isn’t a defense. They had to present evidence that someone else had a motive or actually might have committed the crime. They couldn’t. The court usually limits the defense what they can reasonably prove not just any wild conjecture to muddy the waters. There are no other plausible suspects. The evidence clearly shows Avery did it.

    • Andrew Bierce

      The defense doesn’t have to “prove” anything.
      And there are lots of “plausible” suspects; you make it sound like it’s not reasonably possible for someone else to have done it.

    • Sanchioso

      The only thing that was CLEAR was that Avery was presumed guilty until proven innocent….then the defense was prevented from investigating anyone else sealed the deal. Far as I know you don’t need evidence to investigate other viable suspects. One investigates to find said evidence…no?

      • Bcrew

        The defense wasn’t prevented from investigating anything. They couldn’t find anything. Have you read the appellate decision? They said the court was right on the law to not allow the defense to throw out all kinds of people without any evidence. It just muddies the waters.

        • Sanchioso

          “They couldn’t find anything…” riiiiiiiight…..like the prosecution found concrete evidence.

        • melody c lazo

          What if the only reason why they could not find anything was because they only searched steven avery, only him that is why it all leads to him.? The young girl Brendan’s cousin I think…she made up story right?

          • Bcrew

            This makes no sense. So if you had nothing to do with a murder but they searched you, they would find tons of evidence that you did it? Everything led to him because he obviously did it. They investigated others. They didn’t do it. Avery did. Dassey’s cousin lied on the stand to try to protect Dassey. He obviously told her damaging things.

          • Mikey NYK

            Bcrew or should i say…Scott Tadych! What are you doing on here?

          • Bcrew

            LOL another laughable response from an Avery supporter. What a surprise.

          • melody c lazo

            I just thought they didnt investigate others. If others wouldve been a suspect maybe they could have found other evidence in their home. And they have tried to use the evidence (needle mark on the blood tube) but the judge denied it. I think he denied a couple of more things. What about the millions of dollars that he was or maybe mightve receive…I dont think anyone would want to messed that up. I want them to test the other bloods that didnt get tested on that scene. oh yeah other thing the video or audio that was said…where to put Steven Avery and that blonde chick who tested the blood that ended up getting her DNA on it was ridiculous, these kinds of things makes me think he is innocent. But he keeps trying and keeps getting denied for a second trial. Now he is trying to study the law lol

          • Bcrew

            He’s guilty as sin. They investigated others. There was nothing. They used the blood vial nonsense at trial. It’s laughable. A nurse at the prison poked the hole to put the blood in which is standard practice.

          • Lamaya

            Who else did they investigate for Theresa’s death then?

          • Bcrew

            They interviewed a lot of people. All evidence led directly to Avery. Imagine that. The defense couldn’t even bring up anyone else because their investigators could find nothing. Because Avery clearly did it.

          • james barklow

            The blood evidence was obviously tampered with. Bcrew lives with an ugly wife who nightly shoves Sheboygan brats up his saurkraut butt.

          • Bcrew

            The blood evidence clearly was not tampered with. That’s been completely debunked. A prison nurse said she poked the hole to put his blood in, which is standard practice. The seal was broken by investigators as allowed by the judge. The vial was exactly as should be expected according to an industry expert. Your post is typical of Avery supporter. You guys are intellectual infants who can do nothing but make childish insults. Grow up.

          • james barklow

            BCREW needs to finish another sixpack and go back to his Packer highlife reels.

          • Bcrew

            Wow are you 8 years old?

  • Kim Li

    After watching the series, considering this is a real case and I might unintentionally insult someone (I appologize) I have the only one strongest impression that Manitowoc Police killed Theresa Halbach and planted all the evidence in that case. This is not system failing, this is about criminals in the police force. They are not gods, they are ordinary people and some of them might be criminals. Steven Avery, a poor and a not very smart person is more consistent during all proceedings than the smartest police officer in this case. Avery was framed because of his $36 M suit against the Manitowoc County. To behave the best of his ability was in his interest. Police had the strongest ground to get rid of Steven Avery and they succeeded.

    The second suspicious and possible murderer might have been Theresa Halbach’s former boyfriend. Why was he never questioned is beyond my understanding. If he has done it, it might have been a coincidence with the Avery’s suit against the County, but very unusual one!

    The third: but sometimes the strangest reactions I have seen in Theresa’s brother statements. (At the third day of her disappearance he already asks for grieving time, for the family to be let in peace, as if he knew she was dead. His statement was never explained.)

    The fourth: someone have had accidentally shot Theresa and killed her and planted the evidence to Avery’s property.

    The most striking discovery is about how little Teresa Halbach, her llife and relationships are mentioned in the whole 10 hours series. Her family has never been really mentioned. As if she was a coincidental victim. No one actually ever questioned if she herself might have done intentionally something that lead to her death.

    To me the only supporting evidence about Steven Avery being involved in her death is the bonfire and a recently mentioned fact by his then girlfriend, that she should have been let out of jail the same day of a murder for a visit, that Steven Avery came to pick her up but she was not let out.
    As Mr Avery’s lawyer said “I only hope he has done it really, because the thought of him being innocent is unbearable.”

    Anyway, this case is definitely not solved fairly, and someone’s strong interest shaped the whole prosecution.

  • Rob

    It’s clear evidence was planted and if you don’t think that then I don’t know what planet you are on…. For example cleaned the entire garage so there was no traces of dna but left casings and a bullet in the open! Come on get real, the officers involved should be put to trial and should be doin the time for framing Steven for the murder…… Shame on the justice system!!! And for everyone who thinks it’s fine I would love you to be in his position using so called dodgy evidence to commit you of murder…. Don’t think it would be fine then would it!

  • The big question

    Based on the “making a murderer” netflix series and what I can read online about the evidence, it’s hard to make a concrete decision. I feel that this series was, biased (but I think that is a strong word, I mean after all the series was directed in the defenses favor). Watching the series definitely makes me feel that he is 100% not guilty. That being said, if you take into consideration all the evidence that was not presented in the series I still think he is not guilty, but I feel there could be a probability that he may be guilty of this crime. The DNA under the hood I feel you have to throw out, I have read many scientific articles about sweat DNA and it sounds to me that it is not a very accurate test. Plus if they found “sweat DNA” where are the fingerprints. Where are the fingerprints on the key? Where are the fingerprints in or on the car? I don’t think someone would wipe down a whole car inside and out and skip right past the blood. Now for the car, why would someone who has had a couple of days to clean up drive right past a car crusher and hide the car on his own property? Now for the blood vial, it was clearly tampered with, who knows when, but without a doubt it was handled and used for something in a improper way. So in my view that blood could definatly be planted. As for the EDT testing who knows, I think with a case this big everyone should have been present when they performed the test from taking it from the car to taking it to the test tube. For the body, why 3 burn sights? And how did the body get so mutilated? Maybe a mulcher? But for a body to be mutilated to the point of 10s of 100s of pieces, where the machine that did that? As for Brendan dassey, his statement in my mind can not be used due to the nature of the way he was questioned. I could go on and on questioning the prosecutors evidence, but when I try to question the defense side and there evidence I can’t because it totally makes sense.

  • Andrew Bierce

    Well technically, there has only to be reasonable doubt, not proof.

    • Bcrew

      And there isn’t. Not even close.

  • crystal

    I’m not sure if he did it or not but….I can’t help but think of how easy it would be to frame him….getting the car there and planting the keys in his room would not be hard.The salvage yard is huge and pretty isolated.She could of been killed at the hands of another and the killer lucked out cause she had visited the junk yard and thought “voila” instant scapegoat..knowing the cops would get tunnel vision once they found the car.. I mean after 18 yrs in prison would you really kill someone then keep the car and remains on your property and keys in your room ? and leave a blood smear of his own blood in plain view right on the dash of her car…That would mean he made no real attempt to get rid of evidence He can’t be that stupid! A car is not an easy thing to hide. It wasn’t hidden very well. It seems fishy. The detective from the earlier case just so happens to find the keys? They could of pressured the kid to confess. It seems like overkill too..throat slit,shot 2x in the head..I don’t know..Then the boy says he did it on the phone with his mom….Maybe he did do it? Strange case..

  • Kathy Coe Bagley

    What I’d like to know it what is wrong with these people in Wisconsin? All the relatives have violent issues with women, child molestation, lying, jealous of each other. WTH, it sounds like the movie “Deliverence”. Too much interbreeding!

  • englishrose

    Something very suspicious about her brother right from the beginning. My opinion is it as him and her ex boyfriend together. Why tamper with her voicemails? In the beginning he was talking about grieving when she wasn’t even found dead at that point .

  • No name

    I believe the prosecution and the defense teams all forgot about Teresa Halbach. If Teresa were my family member, I would not be satisfied with the investigations done by all parties involved. It does not appear that those involved are interested in the truth, including the jurors who convicted Damsey and Avery. There was very little objective evidence gathered on behalf of Teresa Halbach. All parties involved seemed to be very subjective about what happened on the day Teresa Halbach was murdered, including Judge Fox and Willis. This is a great injustice for Teresa Halbach. Avery and Damsey deserve another trial, because Teresa deserves true justice. Justice that is not tainted by he said she said information and by personal belief systems. I understand that some people are found guilty based on circumstantial evidence, but this case even lacked that. There had to be a crime scene somewhere and they failed to find it. They did not even look for it. The defense and prosecution teams failed to explore all possibilities thoroughly and objectively. Teresa deserves that. All parties involved should give her that, including her family. Subjective point of views are not facts and should be minimized and/or excluded from criminal cases. How do they know Teresa was shot eleven times? How do they know Teresa Halbach’s throat was cut? How do they know where she was killed? The truth is we do not know, because no one took the time to find out what, where, when, how, and who killed Teresa Halbach. Both sides projected what they thought may have happened to Teresa and both sides fought to support their projections. How is this JUSTICE for Teresa Halbach? Nothing was persued in the best interest of Teresa.

  • The Dude

    New to this whole discussion, but thus far one thing that sticks (and stinks) with me are her car keys.

    * Why in the world would they be in Avery’s bedroom?
    * What possible reason would anyone have for taking them from the vehicle after moving the car?
    * And why just throw them on the floor of the bedroom?

    Lots of question – still processing it all – but my mind keeps returning to these questions. It seems the only real reason to keep the car keys is to plant them somewhere and frame someone (though I havent decided yet if I think he is innocent, just commenting on the keys.)

  • Teresa Garner

    There is one way to find out… Start interviewing people and have a man pop up with a lie detector and film their reaction. An honest person would take it to clear themselves. I don’t think SA did it, but why didn’t the makers of the doc ask him to test? The results are inadmissible, but their reactions would tell the rest of this story! It may provide a new statement or lead. We aren’t dealing with rocket scientists here, It could ultimately free Dassey. BTW How screwed up is that family! I don’t think I’ve ever heard of such a violent family tree! I would suspect someone from that yard first, and then her ex. There isn’t really too much doubt about the police planting evidence either. There is someone pure evil in that family tree, though. I would guess a predator that preys on the younger boys and girls that instills hate at an early age.

  • Bcrew

    No they’re not. I answered many of them. Most of them are just wild conspiracy theory with nothing to support it. You have no response to my questions. Not to mention you are wrong on the facts. He said he shot her 5 times. Again, how would they be able to verify that when he burned up the body? The EDTA is moot. A nurse says she poked the hole in his vial to put the blood in which is standard practice. There goes the tampering theory. You have nothing but wild conspiracy. No facts. No evidence. You don’t even know the facts of the case. They found her effects burnt in his burn barrel. The propaganda people and defense like people like you. People who are easily duped and irrational. Yes, the prosecution likes people like me when the defendant is guilty. Someone with common sense and who doesn’t irrationally buy crazy conspiracies with zero to support them. I think facts are truth. You think tv is.

    • Dalton Garner

      You are truly an idiot…and I’m not full convinced that you aren’t employed by Manitowoc County…. You wanted to say that there was astounding amounts of evidence. One of the examples that you used shouldn’t be allowed as evidence. The bullet containing Steven’s DNA. If you listening to the trial, then you know that the bullet also contained the forensic analyst’s DNA, too. Her reasoning was she was teaching some students…….Avery’s lawyers asked to be present during the testing and examining but were denied in order to assure no cross contamination. That being said, if a test is botched then it must be thrown out and retried. Fortunately, she used up the entire sample on that one test.

      • Bcrew

        Ha the response of someone with no response. I’m the idiot who believes a biased tv show and crazy conspiracy theories. Hysterical

      • Bcrew

        The test wasn’t botched and there was no way for her to contaminate it with Terrsa’s DNA. Keep believing a biased tv show. No response to the mountain of other evidence I see.

        • Dalton Garner

          THE TEST WAS CONTAMINATED WITH THE DNA OF THE LADY WHO HAD TESTED THE BULLET. IF YOU READ FORENSIC LAW, IT STATES THAT IN THOSE SITUATIONS THAT THE TEST MUST BE THROWN OUT AND RETRIED. I’m not saying that Avery didn’t do it, but that the evidence that was provided to the jury was hardly enough to convict someone. Explain the emails between the forensic analyst and Fassbender? Why would he tell her to make sure they put avery at the scene? They had enough evidence on him already, huh?

          We as Americans also have the right from unreasonable search and seizures. Which means you can’t keep people away from their home as long as you please. I would say 6 days is plenty to find all of the evidence that must be there. So why on the 7th day did the happen to find a key? and who happened to find the key? Someone that was about to lose his entire career and livelihood that he had worked for over 20 years to accomplish.

          I bet you are the type of person that believes that GOD lead her aunt to her vehicle…..LMFAO

          • Bcrew

            No it wasn’t. It was allowed in court and upheld on appeal. You are wrong on the facts. There is a clear explanation for why her DNA was present but not for Teresa’s. The jury disagrees with you. Anyone with any common sense sees that the evidence was simply damning. There is no way to reach any conclusion but that he did it. You base your beliefs on propaganda. There were zero emails showing any collusion in the slightest. None. You’re regurgitating talking point lies. There was no unreasonable search or seizure. All you have is wild conjecture and conspiracy theory with nothing to support it. Lenk wasn’t about to lose anything. You are so badly misinformed. Your last comment proves the utter worthlessness of your bankrupt argument.

          • Dalton Garner

            Okay, I see that you refuse to see only what you choose to see. Answer this one question for me… Why was Stephen Avery the only suspect in their entire investigation?

          • Bcrew

            From the guy who believes crazy conspiracies from the defense because they had no other defense and a biased tv show. Really? He wasn’t. They looked into other suspects. All the evidence pretty quickly proved he did it. There is no evidence pointing to anyone else. I wonder why?

          • Dalton Garner

            Because they didn’t want anyone else to have done it. Please tell me the facts that you based your opinion on that he wasn’t the only suspect they looked into? Why was there a call from dispatch between an officer right after the car was found asking if they had a body? No. Do we have stephen avery in custody? Not yet. At that point they had no physical evidence on him, only circumstantial evidence.

          • Bcrew

            LOL. Yes, the evidence decided it wanted to convict Avery. Exactly. They had evidence he did it and obviously would want him in custody to question him. They also looked into other family members who had opportunnity. All evidence leads to Steven. You believe in fairytales.

          • Bcrew

            LOL. They investigated other suspects. Fact. The defense didn’t even claim otherwise. There is as no evidence at all to pursue anyone else. There wasn’t boatload of evidence to suspect and eventually convict Avery. So a girl is missing for days, they find her car hidden and the normal conclusion wouldn’t be that she’d dead? They had circumstantial evidence and would want to have Avery in custody and question him. Are you serious? You guys are just hysterical. Stick to watching tv.

          • SNL

            Then why didn’t they search the Dassey trailer NEXT TO the Avery trailer thoroughly for DNA? They could have easily gotten a warrant to do this in the 8 days they were searching the Avery trailer. Wasn’t the victim there to photograph Barbara Janda’s car? Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych in particular seem to have ample opportunity and motive and no alibi. In addition, Scott selling a 22 rifle in addition to his hatred of Steven. The investigation seems lacking for such a serious crime. The search for the car was equally unbelievable. I guess I don’t see it as so open and shut with all of these lingering questions.

          • Bcrew

            LOL the Dassey trailer isn’t right next to the Acery trailer. There is zero evidence supporting Tadych is the killer. The defense couldn’t even bring it up in court because they couldn’t find anything. So Tadych planted all this evidence right next to Avery’s trailer without him knowing? All you have is crazy conspiracy theory and wild speculation. Avery set up the appointment and specifically asked for Teresa. He lied and initially claimed she never showed up. There is no lingering questions. You bought propaganda from a tv show.

          • SNL

            My point is that the investigation was not thorough. That is a problem. Too many contradictory statements for one. There is no propaganda, I reviewed the details I could find of the case including information not included in the documentary. Why wouldn’t an exhaustive forensic search be done of various relevant sites nearby INCLUDING the Dassey residence, which must have been in close proximity. Are you saying that this property was not close by? If the only blood was in the car, then find where the crime actually took place.

          • Bcrew

            Which is patently false. So they searched Avery’s property too many times but the investigation wasn’t thorough. There is exactly zero evidence pointing to anyone but Avery. Zero. It’s why the defense couldn’t bring up other suspects. Their investigators turned up nada. The appellate court confirmed this. Stop making stuff up to believe a biased tv show. They searched the entire property and according to the reporter who got famous from covering the case, the garage “lit up” from luminal, Brendan’s mom said he had unknown bleach stains on his jeans the night of the murder, and there was a bullet matched to Avery’s gun with Terrsa’s DNA on it in the garage. Quit the pretense. You want to believe despite all the facts proving he’s guilty.

          • SNL

            There are too many other leads or facts that were ignored. Why would there be several burn sites…. so she was maybe burned at a quarry 1/2 mile away, then some in the barrel, then some in the pit? It doesn’t make sense to move the remains to several locations. When she was missing why was “someone” listening to and deleting her voicemails (aka potential clues) on the 1st (she purportedly died on the 31st) yet no one reported her missing until nearly 2 days later? No one reported her missing for 36 hrs after that… her boyfriend, ex bf, roommate, brother… why? There was a .22 rifle found of the same make and model found in the Dassey house. Scott sells a .22. I guess because you are saying they did a thorough investigation they must have. Good enough for me. Let’s immediately ignore all other potential suspects, family, boyfriends, friends, locations, emails, voicemails…including her home because Avery must have done it. Even though there were clearly many others with access, opportunity and potential motive. Thorough and objective indeed.

          • Bcrew

            LOL. There is no evidence she was burned at the quarry. Almost every bone in her body was in the pit. Her body wasn’t burnt in the barrel at all. Burnt tires and her remains were interspersed at the pit. Please explain this if her bones were moved there. It’s just more crap thrown on the wall because the defense had no real defense against the mountain of evidence. And you want to believe it because of a biased tv show. This conspiracy crap has no rational basis and isn’t possible. There are no other possible suspects. You don’t have to trust the prosecution. The defense had investigators, they came up with nothing. All evidence leads directly to Avery. Are you serious? Let’s just ignore it, ya real objective. Wow

          • SNL

            All different parts of the body bones were in the barrel. That is evidence in the trial, look it up. There was a female pelvic bone in the quarry… I guess that just happens to be some other female burned pelvic bone. I don’t know if he is guilty or innocent, what I do believe is that law enforcement botched the investigation and there is reasonable doubt. And yes, all of those things are possible and innocent people have been sent to jail and even executed. Objectivity means looking at any and all potential suspects. He was not given a fair trial… Period.

          • Bcrew

            No. Almost all her bones were in the pit. They found as you say one bone in the quarry. It’s patently obvious it was from his fire pit. With this monster I wouldn’t doubt he killed someone else as you say though. He has the make up of a serial killer. Again it’s all nonsense. He clearly burnt her body in the fire. Please explain away the burnt tires with her remains interspersed. There is zero evidence to support a botched investigation and you have to just deny reality to believe there is reasonable doubt. There is no way to rationally explain away the mountain of evidence. All suspects were looked at. Everything pointed to Avery. Imagine that. You believe a biased tv show. Period…… The state of Wisconsin disagrees. Good luck with that.

          • SNL

            Incorrect. Again why would remains be moved around to different places. And you failed to answer any of the questions raised and continue to blindly assert that the investigation was spot on. Maybe you are law enforcement… I can think of no other reason why you would continue to fervently defend this fiasco of an investigation. I don’t know if this guy is innocent or guilty as I have said before. I do know he did not get a fair trial. Unfortunately, because of the actions of the police and prosecution, it seems as if no one will really know for sure. I still wonder how and why Colburn called in the plate # before the vehicle was discovered. In addition Scott and Bobby Dassey had ample opportunity and access to commit the crime and about as much motive as anyone. Bobby’s lies on the stand, etc. And the best thing in the world comments by Scott Tadych and his connection with Judge Fox. The actions of the brother and the ex are also bizarre. Revenge and corruption happen. Open your eyes.

          • Bcrew

            They weren’t. Her remains were burned in his fire pit. Almost all bones wee found there and her remains were interspersed with burnt tires. I’ve answered any questions. You have no facts. It’s not possible to answer wild speculation with nothing to support it. “Maybe you are law enforcement.” The response of someone with no facts to support you. Maybe you are a violent criminal or defense attorney. LOL. I can think of no other reason why you would defend an obvious rapist and murderer of a young woman. He did get a fair trial and the appeals court agreed. The police and prosecution did absolutely nothing inappropriate. Nothing. Accusing them with nothing to support it is shameful. What are you talking about? Colburn didn’t know the plate # they were looking for? There is zero evidence to suspect Tadych and it isn’t proven that Bobby lied. Your conspiracy nonsense is ludicrous. Stop blindly believing a biased tv show. Open your eyes.

          • SNL

            God save us all if you are ever on a jury. I am not defending anyone. You seem to be defending all other potential suspects for some reason. I stand by the right to a fair trial. This wasn’t one.

          • Bcrew

            From the guy who believes a biased tv show and laughable conspiracy theories and wants to free an obvious murderer. Stunningly ironic. You are defending a killer with no evidence to support it. There are no other suspects. All the evidence leads to Avery. Both the prosecution and defense investigated and came up with zero on any other suspects. I wonder why that is? I stand by the right to a fair trial. Nice strawman argument. He got one.

          • Jfrn

            No. Bcrew is the ex boyfriend. He is tryiny to keep someone in jail because he does not want to be implicated. Don’t waste your time arguing with this idiot. Ive decided, no matter the facts, he will ignore them because he has something to hide. If everyone will start ignoring him, he will not be able to spew his garbage anymore.

          • Brandy Williams

            jfrn is more than likely right about bcrew being the ex or Teresa’s brother. Someone should try to find out where the email address is coming from.

          • Jf

            If this is the case… can someone answer this…. how did the ex boyfriend have her cell phone if steve avery was the last person to see her alive? There is so much about this case that leaves me speachless. Prosecution and defense.

          • Paul Simon

            I don’t know if someone else had the phone. What I took away from that part of the documentary was that the person checked the phone remotely (by dialing her number, following a series of prompts, which would have included entering her password/security code).

          • Bcrew

            He didn’t. You’re so misinformed it’s silly. It was in Avery’s burn barrel right next to his house. Stop believing a propaganda tv show and you won’t be speechless.

          • Rita

            Bcause they framed him…bcause he sued the sherriffs and win for his wrongful conviction earlier. Funny how it all happened days b4 they were to pay him???

          • Jf

            Yea, definitely feel this was a set up. It was all so convenient

          • Rita

            Then who deleted all her phone messages..Teresa’s????

          • Bcrew

            They weren’t all deleted. Some were, by whom I’m not sure and I’m not sure the police know. No evidence that it’s relevant.

          • Rita

            Listen dumbass…there was no DNA ever found in Steven Avery home or garage. You need to go back and watch the show!

          • Bcrew

            Wrong. They found a bullet with Teresa’s DNA on it in the garage. There also his blood and DNA in her car. You prove the point. You believe a propaganda tv show. The actual evidence shows he’s unquestionably guilty.

          • Rita

            Bcrew your name sb screwball!!!

          • Bcrew

            Thanks for showing why you believe a biased tv show and support a monster. Wow

      • Scott Henry

        Pretty important case to risk contaminating by using it as a teaching tool for students.

        • Paul Simon

          Scott – who are you going to believe, bcrew or your lying eyes? See my post in this string to Dalton Garner about bcrew. He will not listen to reason. He just likes to say what an “epic failure” you are and how the jury agreed with him (not the other way around, mind you). I wouldn’t waste any more ink on this moron.

          • Jfrn

            Bcrew also introduces new character profiles on this board to help him support his case, because they know that no reasonable person would be able to match their lack of intelligence. If you notice, these characters speak, using the same language, as bcrew.

          • Paul Simon

            P.S – not only did your post start my day off with a laugh, but in a small measure, it helped restore my faith in humanity , If for no other reason than I know that there is one fewer person who actually thinks what bcrew writes. On another note, how do you like the conversation on this site, compared to that on the Federalist?

          • Jfrn

            Oh it’s exhausting knowing someone is this ignorant. Lots of spin, so make sure you debate with clear statements that a preschooler can understand. Otherwise, once you prove your facts, they will spin it in every direction but right. I just laugh at how terrible his spin is and how smart they think they are by trying to spin.

      • Paul Simon

        Dalton – you hit the nail on the head both with your assessment of the facts and the of bcrew. I just endured a two-day running debate with this moron. He will not listen to reason. Among other things, in the context of why Avery’s trailer had no DNA, hair, blood, etc., belonging to Ms. Halbach, first he claimed that he could prove there was a clean-up, but after I pointed out that not even Kratz (the prosecutor) argued there was evidence of a clean-up inside Avery’s trailer, he then asked me–in substance–what evidence did I have to prove Avery did not clean-up the “crime scene”? Later, he claimed that the lack of any blood, including cast-off, was not important because the evidence showed Avery did it. I wouldn’t waste my breath with him.

        • Rita

          Me neither..he has no brain!

        • Jfrn

          Oh my God! So much YES! I, too, endured the ad nauseum ignorant rants. God help these lost souls and my precious loss of time.

      • Rita

        There was no DNA ever found in his home or Garage!

    • Dalton Garner

      The tampering wasn’t the pin hole in the top of the purple lid. The tampering was that whoever had drawn a sample from that tube didn’t follow protocol. Protocol is to then add NEW tape and NEW plastic to the box. Then the testing party must SIGN and DATE so that these types of things do not happen. Who signed it? Who retaped it? No one. It is either tampered with or negligence. Either should warrant a new trail….

      • Bcrew

        Nope. They said it was tampered with because it had a puncture hole in the top. The nurse destroyed that ludicrous theory. Further the judge allowed investigators access, they say they broke the seal. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Not even to mention the FBI testing because you’ll just deny those facts as well.

        • Scott Henry

          It’s not all that ludicrous to think a pinhole poked through the lid of a vial is evidence of tampering. It would make more sense to put the blood in BEFORE you put the lid on. And are you saying the defense investigators broke the seal? I’m pretty sure I watched a video of them showing the seal was already broken before they opened it.

          • Bcrew

            Except the nurse who put the blood in said she poked the hole to put the blood in and this is standard practice. There is zero to support tampering. The defense tried anything because they had no defense against the mountain of evidence.

          • Dottie Newman

            No, blood is not collected into an open vial and then capped. watch a youtube video on phlebotomy training. The vials and collection process are designed to protect healthcare workers from risk of patients blood getting on them. Numerous health care professionals have come forward to say the hole in the cap is normal. Attorney’s for Avery’s civil suit had also accessed that evidence just weeks prior to the murder. THEY would have opened those evidence seals.

          • No name

            Thank you Dottie.

          • Jfrn

            Then you would also know that the collection process is designed to protect healthcare workers against needle sticks by use of needless system transfer devices. It’s an OSHA requirement

          • Rita

            Yes u r absolutely right! They also reported 4 vials were given in the beginning??

      • Dottie Newman

        Wouldn’t that evidence have been accessed by the attorney’s who filed the civil suit against the county just shortly before this murder? Just like these attorney’s got it and examined it someone else did before them. Why wasn’t the person from that case who signed the evidence out called to testify what condition the box was returned in? That’s a glaring problem for the defense because if they could have established it was secure when last signed for they would have.

    • No name

      I addressed most of your illogical thought process. You are also attempting to change what you actually said. You are also trying to feed me back some of things I said to you like they were your concepts. I have experience with people like you. Let us just say low intelligence. No blood tube should have a whole like that in it. I really hope you are not making a mockery out this case. This is not a joke. It is not funny. It is a very serious situation. I am certain the Halbach family is very sensitive to this issue.

      • Bcrew

        Yes, I’m illogical and not too intelligent because I believe crazy conspiracies and a biased tv show. Really? You’re the one making a mockery of this case. He’s so obviously guilty it’s just silly. The prison nurse who filled the vial said she poked the hole which is standard practice and an investigator said he broke the seals as the judge allowed. So much for that conspiracy lie and gotcha moment. Made for good tv though. Her family knows he’s guilty. They say they feel victimized by these filmmakers and those easily and willingly duped by them.

        • Jfrn

          It’s not standard practice. I dare you to check out OSHA requirements on blood transfer, as it is a requirement to transfer through a needless system.

          • Bcrew

            It certainly is or was at the time. Others supported that it was common practice. So you have no real response to the fact that your conspiracy nonsense was completely destroyed. Thanks

          • Jfrn

            Wrong.

          • Bcrew

            Yes, you have been consistently

          • Jfrn

            You keep fighting an unwinnable fight with, not just me, but quite a few other people. That’s just on this site alone. Nobody backs any of your arguments, so, I’d say, you have lost this one, hands down. Game.

          • Bcrew

            Already won. You have no response to the facts. Why would I care if kool aid drinkers that believe a biased tv show support me? Really? Avery is in prison with little chance of ever getting out. Game, set, match

          • Amanda T Le

            why is that you people’s response always lands on “kool-aid drinkers” is that really the best you can come up with? If anything anyone who says that usually is the type I think Jim Jones would’ve convinced to drink the kool-aid.

          • Bcrew

            It describes Trumpsters perfectly. They’re cultists. Trump is a pathological liar and fraud.

          • Jim

            your a complete clown!!! and quite funny to read your dribble!!!

          • Bcrew

            😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 But I know how to use you’re. Trumpsters don’t.

          • Bcrew

            I dare you to actually get one actual fact that you are right about that backs anything you say.

          • Jfrn

            I’ve been able to get every single one of my facts correct. I cannot help that you are illiterate. Argue with someone who is on your low level of intellectual standards. I refuse to do so because you give me migraines.

          • Bcrew

            You haven’t given one fact and you’ve been proven wrong repeatedly. What can I expect from someone who blindly believes a tv show? Ya that’s a high level of intellectual standards. Hilarious

          • Jfrn

            You’ve proven a thing, let alone, prove me wrong. Like I said, you give me migraines. Your “sweat” DNA argument, alone, proves how misinformed and unreliable you are.

          • Bcrew

            Yes, I guess the fact that I proved you wrong about sweat DNA and that you didn’t know DNA can be obtained from sweat would give you a migraine. It’s what happens when you blindly follow a biased tv show and parrot talking points.

          • Jfrn

            I cannot believe you continuously make a fool of yourself. It hurts me to watch. “Sweat” DNA does NOT exist, no matter how you try and spin it. Your ignorance is dumbfounding. I can only shake my head to the lies you produce and honestly think they are true. Do yourself a favor, go back and finish school.

          • Bcrew

            It does exist no matter how you try to spin it and I proved it. You deny basic science and look completely uninformed. Yes, I’m the one who is ignorant, making a fool of myself, and needs to go back to school because I’m the one who believes a biased tv show and crazy conspiracies and can’t respond to any of the evidence. Thanks again for the laughs

          • Jfrn

            Just where did you prove it? You saying it exists, does not make something that does not exist, exist. Did you speak it to life? Where is your proof?

          • Bcrew

            Wow the irony. “You saying something something exists does not make something that does not exist, exist.”
            That sums up your entire pathetic argument.

          • Jfrn

            Nope. You obviously do not know the difference between biological material and DNA.

          • Bcrew

            DNA can be left behind by sweat. I gave a link that showed the police arrested a robber because they got his DNA from sweat left in socks he left behind. I gave a quote from science how things work that specifically says that DNA can be obtained from sweat. You are just denying reality as you have throughout. It just makes you look foolish. There is no point to discussing anything with someone who just denies basic, commonly known facts. You’ve done it consistently. You do more to damage your argument than anything I could do. Then again you blindly believe a propaganda tv show and crazy conspiracies. Wow

          • Jfrn

            No. The sweat did not leave the actual DNA. If you understood anything about DNA, you would see that the DNA was derived from skin cells, which then, due to sweat and friction, left DNA. The DNA was not produced from the sweat, the sweat and friction left skin cells (where the DNA was derived from) behind. Get your facts straight and learn how to distinguish what DNA is and what it is not. DNA is found in cells. Cells are not found in sweat.
            Within cells, DNA is organized into long structures called chromosomes. During cell division these chromosomes are duplicated in the process of DNA replication, providing each cell its own complete set of chromosomes.

          • Bcrew

            Not what you said. Sweat leaves behind DNA. Look at you backtracking and changing the goalposts. Hilarious. So there is swear DNA after all. You denied this. Game, set, match.

          • Jfrn

            No. What I said was “sweat” DNA does not exist. Stop spinning. The only person changing their story is you. Probably because you realized you were wrong, so you felt the need to spin my words. Sorry, bucko, all of my words are here in black and white.

          • Bcrew

            Me
            So sweat doesn’t leave behind DNA?
            You
            No

            Stop lying. Everyone can read it and it just makes you look more pathetic.

          • Jfrn

            “Hilarious. So there is swear DNA after all. You denied this. Game, set, match.”

            Nope. I do not deny that there is no “sweat” DNA. Sweat does not produce, as in chemically make up, dna. You cannot take sweat, exclusively, and pull DNA from it. Still stand by that fact. Sweat only makes the DNA present in, for example, skin cells, to slough off. The DNA is from the skin cells, not from the sweat. So, yes, I still stand by my comment that there is no such as “sweat DNA”, and furthermore, Ken Krants states that they retrieved the DNA from sweat. There is no such test that would conclude that the DNA is caused by product of cells washed off by sweat, or, or in other words, caused by the sloughing of skin cells by way of sweat, even if I believed your ridiculous argument.

          • Bcrew

            Nope. Not what you said.
            Me
            So sweat cannot leave behind DNA?
            You?
            No

            Game, set, match
            Answer the questions or go away. You’re toast here

          • Jfrn

            Nope what I said was there is no such thing as “sweat” DNA. I know how you are trying to spin it. I proved that sweat does not produce DNA. You are trying to spin it as though you are trying to say what I showed you and that is that Sweat DNA does not exist, however sweat can cause DNA from skin cells to be left behind. Furthermore, you are trying to prove an argument made by Ken Krantz which was that they tested the DNA and it came from Avery’s sweat. Although I know the nature of your spin, if you are trying to arguing in agreeing with the prosecution, you still have no argument as there is no way to conclude that the DNA that came from cellular material was washed off by sweat. The only you can conclude this is if you were standing in front of Avery, saw him his sweat, and swabbed the sweat directly off of his body. Then, and only then, can you conclusively say that the DNA found, produced by cellular structure, was taken by a swab of his sweat. You cannot conclude, from the swab of a car, that the DNA from cellular structure came from the sweat of Steven Avery. This is the argument you were originally trying to prove, was it not?

          • Bcrew

            Nope. Not what you said. You didn’t know you could obtain DNA from sweat. No lies or spin can get you out of this.

            Still can’t answer the questions.

            Me
            Can DNA be obtained from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            You lost. Just give it up. You can’t spin my words to mean what you want it to. I stand by what I say. There is no such thing as “sweat” DNA. Do you understand what “” means?
            Your words “they found sweat DNA under the hood”.
            My words “there is no such thing as sweat DNA”
            Give up. You may be able to spin words with other people, you will fail the spin game with me. I’ve taken many years of formal debate. Spin is your game.

          • Bcrew

            You want me to give it up because you were wrong and didn’t know you could obtain DNA from sweat. You embarrassed yourself.

            Yes words have meaning. Here are yours.
            Me
            So can you obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

            You’ve taken many years of formal debate but don’t seem to know that you have lost when you won’t answer straight forward yes or no questions. Still waiting. Did they teach you to go on irrational, incoherent rants and call people idiots and morons in your formal debate training? You’re hysterical

          • Jfrn

            Wrong. You are a terrible liar.

            Your words: “nephew claims they used on her, her car found on the property with his blood on it and sweat DNA on the hood latch ”

            My words:
            “There is no such thing as sweat DNA”

            Besides the spin you can’t unique to do because I proved you wrong. You can’t use quotes when a) the question you quote was never asked, and b) my statement has never changed.

            You cannot physically remove DNA from sweat, as sweat does not carry its own DNA, or, genetic material.

            Fact: you called it “sweat” DNA.
            Fact: there is no such thing as “sweat” DNA.

            You are lousy when it comes to trying to prove your validity. Especially when what has been said is in writing. You can’t change the ink, buddy. You believe your own lies. If you can’t remember the lies you tell, do yourself a favor and don’t put it in print so that others can go back and read verbatim the statements you made and the statements I’ve made

            Again, you’re educational institutions need to evaluated for their subpar academics. You’ve exhausted your number of attempts of spinning truth. People do not debate with you because you can’t debate. Never think, that when people stop responding to your garbage, it is because you win. It is for no other reason than your inability to see your arguments are nothing but spin, spewing speculation as fact, and inability to see holes in any of your arguments. You have narcissistic and disassociate behavior characteristics. You simply cannot bring people, such as yourself, to reality in this form of discussion. It is simply impossible.

            Tell me I’m wrong. Tell me I believe propaganda tv. Tell me that I’ve lost..game, set, match. Tell me I’m a liar. Tell me I have not proven my facts. Tell me I have a better chance of winning the powerball. Tell me about the egg on my face. These have been your repeated arguments with everyone that discredits you. It makes no difference to me if you make yourself believe your lies. The problem is, for you, nobody else does. Everybody sees your faulty argument and spin doctrine. You see, your lies are seen by you as truth. However, in debate, it is most important for others to see your truth. If there is no truth in your argument, or you are unable to spin your lies for others to believe as truth, then your argument is dead. You will always believe your lies. To win, you have to make your opponents see your lies as truth. You have failed in every direction. Your lies continue to be just what they are, lies.

          • Bcrew

            Still lying, deflecting, and denying. Everyone can see you’re lying and wrong.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            Ok

          • Bcrew

            Thanks for finally admitting you’re wrong

          • Jfrn

            Ok doesn’t admit defeat, idiot. Know the difference.

          • Bcrew

            Yep.

            So you still can’t answer the questions.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            Foolish child. Learn to win an argument. Your spin does not work on me. You lose. End of case. I emphatically proved you wrong. Try as you might to say you are right, however, your lack of education is left behind, publicly. That must be so embarrassing. You are wrong, I am right. Arguing with you is like arguing with a blind man that says the sky is green. End of story. End of discussion.

          • jen

            Are you a moron or just straight up stupid!?

          • Bcrew

            Nice try I know who this is.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Galen Pack

            You are so sad. I feel sorry for you.

          • Bcrew

            Yes, because I believe a biased tv show and support a psycho. LOL

            1. Cruelty to animals for The cat incident.
            2. Drove his cousin off the road and threatened her with a shotgun. 6 year sentence without the rape charge
            3. 2 burglaries.
            4. 2 women gave affidavits he raped them and one said he threatened her family not to report it.
            5. Felon in possession of firearms. 10 year sentence without the murder charge.
            6. Brendan molestation accusation.
            7. Fiancée abuse accusations with police record supporting it.
            8. Rape/murder fantasy and torture chamber plans while in prison.
            9. Death threats against his wife while in prison.

            The man is a monster.

          • Bcrew

            It’s pretty obvious who you are. Not many are unintelligent and infantile enough to just start calling people morons, idiots, and stupid. No wonder you bought a propaganda tv show.

          • Betty12345

            Preach! I agree and whether the police planted some evidence or not (which I believe that they did) I still believe that their is so much evidence that can’t be planted stacked up against him for him to not be guilty, and even if he is innocent, he deserves a life sentence regardless for covering a cat in lighter fluid and throwing it on a bonfire, Avery is not a nice man and he deserves what he gets.

          • Jfrn

            Stop with your propaganda. You blindly and ignorantly follow a cult of propaganda and uneducated nonsense. You can’t haven understand the facts you provide. Which is fine by me, because your facts, just back up my facts I just understand it, you don’t.

          • Bcrew

            So your argument is that Kraft argued that he left DNA from sweat and the court allowed it but it doesn’t exist. And then it was upheld on appeal. Bawwwaaaaaaa
            Yes I follow a blindly and ignorantly follow a cult of propaganda and uneducated nonsense because unbelieva a biased to show and crazy conspiracies. And in the one who continues to deny factscven when I’m confronted with absolute, direct proof. Just wipe the egg off your face and move on bro. “You can’t even haven understand the facts you provide. Which is fine by me, because your facts, just back up my facts I just understand it you don’t.” You’ve been reduced to a babbling, incoherent fool. Speak English. No one here speaks gibberish. Hilarious.

          • Jfrn

            Your refusal to understand anything blows my mind. Ken Krantz? Seriously? That’s where you base your ideological findings? I bet your teachers passed you only based on the fact that they knew you were not teachable. Your level of comprehension is that of a preschooler, although, that may be giving you more credit than you deserve.

          • Bcrew

            Another rambling, incoherent disaster for you. What are you talking about. Who said anything about ideological findings. Your argument is that they argued there was DNA from sweat but that it doesn’t even exist? And that the court allowed it? And that the appeals court upheld it? Yes or no? Stop deflecting. Yes, I’m the preschooler because I can’t answer the question. CIm the preschooler because I was embarrassingly proven wrong. I’m the preschooler because I believe a biased tv show is reality. Hahahaha

          • Jfrn

            I proved you wrong. Your spin doesn’t work with me.

          • Bcrew

            You were wrong. Just admit it dude. Everyone can read what you said. You just look more childish and foolish denying it.

            Me
            So sweat can’t leave behind DNA?
            You?
            No

            Police busted a robber from dna from his sweaty feet.
            Science how things work – even a small amount of sweat can leave behind DNA.

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            Exactly! Ha! You’re exactly right. DNA is not found in sweat. Yes, you are a preschooler.

          • Bcrew

            So you still can’t answer the questions. You still are denying basic facts and I’m the preschooler. Better call that robber and tell me that his sweaty socks couldn’t have left DNA.

            Me
            So sweat can’t leave behind DNA?
            You
            No
            Game, set, match

          • jen

            The dna found in socks… ARE FROM SKIN CELLS YOU MORON!
            SKIN CELLS PRODUCE DNA…. SWEAT DOES NOT

          • Bcrew

            Nice try I know who this is.
            Pathetic

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • jen

            Fool needs a biology class. We got that in jr high! Time to go get that 8th grade promotion!

          • Bcrew

            Yes, because I’m the one who didn’t know you could get DNA from sweat. LOL

            Nice try I know who this is.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Rita

            Have u heard of Edward Charles Edwards?? Now being investigated for Theresas murder

          • Bcrew

            You didn’t realize that it’s a joke. No one seriously thinks that, that old man did it. One conspiracy nut said that. You guys are so misinformed it’s hysterical.

          • Sean

            Dear Bcrew – thank you. We are a couple of people here and you entertain us outstandingly with your stubbornness.
            p.s. The one making a fool of himself is you.

          • Bcrew

            Yes, because I’m the one who believes a biased tv show and crazy conspiracy theories. And I’m making a fool of myself. Hilarious

          • Jfrn

            Do you even know what DNA is or what sweat is made of? You will find the proof you seek by answering the question.

          • Bcrew

            So you continue to deny that sweat leaves behind DNA? No wonder you believe in a biased tv show.

          • Jfrn

            Yep.

          • Bcrew

            So you continue to completely embarass yourself. Yep.

          • Jfrn

            Nope. You do, however. How would someone embarrass themselves with facts? Resource please.

          • Bcrew

            I gave you quotes and links. You just deny reality. Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            Game set match? You’re not even in the game.

          • Bcrew

            LOL but I know sweat leaves DNA.

          • Jfrn

            You know nothing. You do, however, believe lies and think you have the ability to comprehend anything that has any intellect.

          • Bcrew

            Still deflecting. Wipe the egg off your face, admit you screwed up, and move on. It’s the only way to save some face bro. It’s okay, we all mess up. We don’t all believe bias tv shows and then go do nothing but call people names that don’t drink that kool aid with you but we all mess up. Hilarious.

          • Jfrn

            You screwed up, buddy. It’s all here in black and white. Your spinning of words is ridiculously incriminating of yourself. You’re hilarious, though.

          • Bcrew

            I screwed up because I’m the one who was proven wrong. Wipe the egg off your face dude. At least save a little pride instead of doubling down.

          • Jfrn

            Please when using words, such as deflecting, please use it properly. Deflecting is changing the subject in order to avoid course of direction.

          • Bcrew

            Which is exactly what you did and are doing now. Just admit you were wrong and save some face dude. Still won’t answer the questions.

          • Bcrew

            Yes because I believe a biased tv show. Hilarious

          • Jfrn

            That’s your repeated argument to everyone that has proven you wrong. You are so convincing. Try another approach. This one is old.

          • Bcrew

            Still can’t answer the questions.

            Me
            Can DNA be obtained from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Raymond Mejia

            Had to reply to u….

            -1st there is no such thing as sweat dna….look it up

            -2 it may show one side but if you look everywhere in the presses before the trial was started avery was already guilty in the media and in the public eye….so this was the ONLY thing that showed the other side of the story….and if they didnt show it….we woulld of never known this side of the story….which opened ppls eyes

            3- it was already proven in the court that the bones were moved ….i dont have a link…but look it up yourself…

            4- those “missing evidence” were already discussed and the filmakers had answers to those questions about those “key evidence” ….. look it up…

          • Bcrew

            The problem is Avery followers blindly follow a tv show and are typically badly misinformed.

          • Raymond Mejia

            Just like you following the media and press before the trial? Whats the difference??

            and u know these filmakers had 700 hours of footage of both cases…..even some of the lawyers of the steven trial did not notice or see what happened with len and brendan until they saw the doc… so im not saying they arent one sided…sure…but like i said this was the only place to see the other side to it…if we didnt get this…we would all be thinking what u are thinking….but there is just more to it now

            I mean u can call ppl biased or whatever but anyone can see that there wasnt something right about this trial…. i personaly feel bad for the haubauch family more than anyone…. so its not like i have a side…its not sports….. just saying…atleast to me there was something wrong

          • Bcrew

            I believe the facts of the case that show his obvious guilt. That’s the difference. The other side was available in the trial and by the media. All they did was sell lies to easily duped people. Yes, you have a side. The Halbachs know he’s guilty and say they filled victimized by the propaganda tv series so save your fake sympathy. If you cared about Teresa and her family you wouldn’t be supporting her obvious killer.

          • Kjetil Iversen

            It is the skin-cells in the sweat that gives them the DNA. So yes, you can absolutely extract DNA from sweat.

          • Bcrew

            Yep. Yet many of the Avery supporters have continued to deny this. Wonder why?

          • Jfrn

            He did not inderstand this until it was pointed out to him.

          • Erica Gaines

            Omg you are extremely annoying are you playing tennis or trying to prove yourself? Because you aren’t doing a good job of either one. Evidence was tampered with.

          • Bcrew

            LOL I’m doing so poorly yet you felt compelled to reply.

          • Jfrn

            By the way, this was the evidence Ken Krantz, himself, said was left out of the documentary. Great argument there.

          • Bcrew

            There was a ton of evidence left out of the documentary. You blindly believe it. Great thinking there. Still can’t answer the questions.

            Me
            Can you obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            Again, you cannot make something exist that does not exist. No matter how many times you try and play God, you cannot perform miracles. Give it up, already.

          • Bcrew

            So science how things work is wrong? Really? Every scientist in the world is wrong? You better call that robber that got busted by his DNA from sweat and tell him he got screwed. Absolutely hilarious

          • Jfrn

            You just have no clue as how it works. Scary.

          • Bcrew

            So you can’t respond to my links or facts? You have no response? I don’t know how it works because I’m the one who denies undisputed, sourced facts. Just wipe the egg off your face and move on bro. It’s okay. It’s hysterical but okay.

          • Jfrn

            Are blind, deaf, and dumb? Good grief, Helen Keller.

          • Bcrew

            Still deflecting because you got destroyed and irrefutably proven WRONG. Still waiting for you to answer the questions.

          • TheTruthIsHere

            Actually, you are the one that has no clue how it works.
            Please actually look up how DNA is collected on a site not associated with this ridiculous case. The FBI has several as does Popular Science.
            All bodily fluids contain DNA.
            Regardless of what Bcrew might have said, you have long argued a wrong point.
            In the future, you might want to research your answers more carefully as to not make yourself look this ignorant.

          • Jfrn

            Perhaps you should do a little research before before making an ignorant claim. Sweat does not produce DNA. DNA can be found in sweat only after being left behind by deposit of a source of a cellular producing structure. “Truth”, you are barking up the wrong tree, as I have my facts straight on this subject. Nice try.

          • TheTruthIsHere

            Wow, seriously? Is your Google broke? Or your brain?
            LOL.. you’re so stupid it’s funny!

          • Jfrn

            Nope. You must be Helen Keller. Nice try, bcrew. Couldn’t find any friends to play with?

          • TheTruthIsHere

            You are completely perpetuating the “dumb blonde” stereotype at this point.

          • Jfrn

            And you have no clue as to the science behind DNA. I’m a science major. You can continue to make yourself look like an idiot if you’d like. Bothers me none. Good luck, buddy.

          • TheTruthIsHere

            You’re a liar.
            Reading your comments is like trying to decipher a 4th grader’s book report. Don’t even try to say you are a science major. It’s purely laughable.
            It’s much more likely you work at a bar or coffee shop where you all gossip about this “show you watched about this guy that was framed on tv”

          • Jfrn

            Um…ok 👍

          • Mary

            You’re right that sweat does not PRODUCE DNA but are massively incorrect about everything else. Whilst sweat itself is minerals, hydrogen and oxygen, the fact that it is produced in the sweat glands mean that is almost certain that some transfer of DNA would take place through transfer. The sweat does not leave the body through osmosis and therefore will contain trace amino acids which in turn leads to DNA analysis and profiling being possible.

          • Jfrn

            By the way, not all bodily fluids produce DNA. Just so you don’t make yourself look ignorant in any of your future posts. You’re welcome.

          • james barklow

            What. God helps scott walker do miracles every day!

          • jen

            Sweat does NOT contain human cells. Therefore NO DNA. LOOK IT UP BRO! So focused on “science” LEARN IT b4 you try amd “teach it”

          • Bcrew

            Not what you said bro. Try again. “Amd”? Try speaking English

            Nice try I know who this is.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Sean

            There is no DNA in sweat. You only can find DNA in sweat if it contains skin-particles. Every half-witted scientist here in Europe knows that.
            As for the case: I don’t claim to know who did it from the facts presented in a TV show, but a lot of the involved persons screwed up big time. To pick one: the DNA testing of the bullet for example.The protocol says, that if the sample is contaminated it has to be ruled as inconclusive and yet they allowed it because – i paraphrase – “you have to use common sense in cases like that”. No, you must not, because that is what protocol is for, otherwise you can just say: use common sense. This is just one of many things and if there is the slightest doubt, whether a person is guilty or not, the verdict must be that he is not.

          • Bcrew

            DNA can be obtained from sweat. All you did was admit what I said and rebutted his argument. There is no doubt. He clearly was guilty according to the evidence. He’s guilty as sin and the jury found him so. Her DNA was on the bullet. You don’t ignore that fact because protocol was violated. Get rid of that evidence. He’s still guilty.

          • Milbia Westby

            You cannot deny his due process. There were mistakes made by the procecution and screwed up royally. They should not have been involved at all in the investigation, it was a conflict of interest because they were being sued by him and also because they Thad sent him to jail before and he was not guilty in that first case. Common sense.

          • Bcrew

            He had due process. His appeals have been rejected. There were no mistakes. He’s guilty. Lenk or Colborn were not being sued and had no motive to risk their lives to frame him. The investigation and prosecution was handled by Calumet County. Lenk found only the key. There’s a mountain of evidence proving his guilt. You believe a biased tv show and crazy conspiracy theories. And you talk about common sense? Really?

          • Galen Pack

            People like you are so yucky

          • Bcrew

            Does your mom know you’re posting?

          • TheTruthIsHere

            Try going to a site that is not associated with this case and you will find that YES, sweat does contain DNA. It’s a bodily fluid. All bodily fluids contain DNA.
            LEARN IT,

          • Baby Skyelander

            Go to any CREDIBLE forensic site, where information isn’t dumbed down for laypeople. You’ll learn the FACTS. Sweat itself has no DNA. Rather, dead skin cells are sloughed off via our sweat. Thus, making it possible to obtain DNA material from clothing, bedding, upholstery, carpeting, kitchen surfaces, etc. The same goes for all other bodily fluids. DNA is found in the cells, not bodily fluids. This is the reason DNA analysts, like Sherry Culhane, are able to identify a person from a DNA sample, but are sometimes unable to tell if the sample came from blood or elsewhere.

          • TheTruthIsHere

            So, in other words, there IS DNA in Sweat? Gee… Who knew?

          • Amanda T Le

            you are incompetent lmao

          • TheTruthIsHere

            You reply to a 3 month old comment and accuse someone else of being Incompetent?
            Well, isn’t that just telling.

          • Betty12345

            hahaha, this is amusing, it is hard to win an argument against an intelligent person but impossible to win against a stupid one, ‘Bcrew’ and ‘TheTruthIsHere’ are about the only ones making any sense :’)

          • Randy Clark

            “What Attorney Kratz also has not mentioned is that there are many studies that show ‘touch DNA’ can be innocently transferred from one object to another, or one person to another, without any connection to a crime. ” Law Professor blog

          • Randy Clark

            In case you missed it while you were bleating…

          • Milbia Westby

            Attorney Ken Kratz for “continuing his public misinformation campaign.”
            “He is making statements he should know are untrue, like claims about Steven Avery’s ‘sweat DNA’ being found on the hood latch of the Rav4,” says [Jerry] Buting. “There is no such thing as ‘sweat DNA.’ DNA is found in all nucleated cells, but there has never been a test to determine that a sample of DNA came specifically from perspiration.”
            He adds: “What Attorney Kratz also has not mentioned is that there are many studies that show ‘touch DNA’ can be innocently transferred from one object to another, or one person to another, without any connection to a crime. ” Law Professor blog

          • Bcrew

            Nope. The DNA was most likely from his sweat. He simply made this point to show it was non-blood DNA because the defense ludicrously said his blood was planted. There is no way Avery’s DNA could be transferred to the hood latch. He claimed he never touched her car. He’s obviously guilty.

          • Melissa Flenner

            He is a very sick man .. he should be put away forever

      • Jfrn

        Bcrew has never answered any argument against his so called facts. They simply copy and paste what the prosecution presented, unable to research anything on their own. Trust me, this person is a waste of time, mental strain, because you cannot fathom that someone can be so inherently ignorant, and a hopeless and worthless cause.

        • james barklow

          Welcome to Wisconsin!

      • Kathy Hendricks

        Low intelligence?? You spelled “hole” WRONG!!

      • james barklow

        Hes from wisconsin. He makes a mockery of everything

      • Rick Melnick

        There’s a bit of irony in your declaration that your rival is of “low intelligence,” and then in the next sentence you state that No blood tube should have a “whole” like that in it. I advocate your position, but personal attacks often end thus, and make the attacker look foolish.

    • Red

      Bcrew- I wonder what your views are on his initial conviction? I’m sure most people would have said that was a solid conviction looking at the transcripts before reexamination of the DNA profiles. At the beginning of the murder trial even the Sherriff himself testified under oath that he thought Steven was guilty of the first conviction, even after a confession from the real assailant, and DNA evidence exonerated Steven. That alone was enough to convince me that Steven couldn’t possibly receive a fair and unbiased hearing in that state.
      Having worked inside police departments myself, I totally understand the pressure imposed by commanding officers to secure a conviction, and how sometimes officers of the law can be coerced into unethical or sometimes criminal acts to secure a weak case.
      I have no doubt there was criminal misconduct by law enforcement during the trial. Kratz basically aditted as much by telling the jury to “ignore the car key eveidence” during his summing up if the case. This is the only piece of evidence linking Steven, his property and the car. The only reason you would ask a jury to disregard it was if you were sure it was illigaly placed there. That said, I’m not saying Steven is innocent, I believe there are two separate issues. 1. The police were inept or complicit in the collection of evidence.
      2. No proper investigation was conducted into the murder.
      Either of those two issues should at least warrant a re-trail. Brendan’s case is just comedy! Any forensic psychologist could tell a jury he was coerced and was illegally interview and also had negligent counsel.
      The fact that it even got to trial draws the judiciary into question also.

      • Bcrew

        You guys keep bringing up his previous case. It’s nonsense. He is so obviously guilty it’s just silly. The rape case was primarily based on a false positive ID. There is so much forensic evidence proving his guilt in the murder you have to just deny reality to believe he’s innocent. “You have no doubt that there was criminal misconduct by law enforcement during the trial.” You just lost any shred of credibility you might have had. There is no evidence to support that whatsoever. You ignore actual evidence in favor of wild conjecture and conspiracy. What are you talking about? His blood and non-blood DNA were all over the car. He told them that they could disregard the key and still convict because he knew people like you might question the evidence simply because of appearance even though there is zero evidence to support it. They had no motive. Lenk and Colburn weren’t going to risk their lives for nothing. The investigation was done properly and he got a fair trial. He has no chance of getting a new one based on those claims. He’s exhausted his appeals and needs substantial new evidence to have any chance. Good luck. Your post is just comedy.

  • chloe

    he used his sisters name for his appointment with Halbach because it was his sisters car she was photographing. Not saying he is or is not guilty it just bugs me when people use that even though it makes perfect sense to use his sisters name if it was her car, it wasn’t a fake name.

  • Damian Hager

    I don’t believe steve avery did it did I hear there was a car crusher and a incinerator on the property I’m looking at the evidence and only the evidence why would he not crush the car incinerate the bones to ash I know he’s not a smart man but he know his own property and why would he murder her when he had a million dollar law suite against the police and why was the car just sitting there with some leaces and a board over it he could have done so many other things put youself in his shoes and say he did do it why why did he leace all the evidence on his property so willy nilly something does not add up this case needs a retrial.

    • Teresa Garner

      Her body was placed in the back of her Rav4 after she was killed. She was was killed by a blow, shot, or stab to the head area because of where the blood was in the vehicle. it wasn’t all along the body, it was her head and hair that left the print. But there was a lot! Whoever placed her body had blood on their clothes, arms, and hands in the least… so the person that put her in the rear of the vehicle did not drive it to the scrap yard. SAs blood was a plant! If she left, she could have been spotted and followed by Tadych and/or Bobby and ran off the road. Knowing the area, my guess is that one moved her Rav4 into the woods or a side road and they raped and shot her in the head and put her body in the back. Whoever handled the top half had blood on them, so the other drove the vehicle back to the yard. The police planted the key, bullet, and SAs blood.

  • Damian Hager

    And one other big point is they say she was killed in the garage but found no dna of Teresa and they say well he meticulously cleaned the garage. so if he did it why did he just accidently forget to clean the rav 4 of his obvious blood smear by the ignition so he’s so clean in one area but totally forgets another ther is just to much planted evidence or the likely of all I know is something smells fishey

    • Teresa Garner

      They even cut a section out of the garage floor that was cracked saying that it would be impossible to remove all DNA from a crack like that and blood would naturally pool at that place … no blood or DNA!!!

  • Ish___Martinez

    Let’s get a good psychic in season 2 and find out!

  • Dottie Newman

    Hole in the blood tube. It’s supposed to be there. That’s how the blood gets into the tube. Two high powered attorneys know this. That whole argument is grandstanding bullshit.

  • annika

    I’m just woundering…. all the blood? I find it really strange that they says that she was raiped, stabbed, shoot….but how do they know? You can’t see that from the bones? all this is a story Brennan said….

  • Jfrn

    Umm…not following your “proof”. I said proof, not a random comment.

    • Bcrew

      Random comment? It states that DNA can be obtained from sweat. You don’t seem to be able to follow anything. Then again you believe a biased tv show.

      • Jfrn

        You are not even playing in left field anymore. They’ve ejected you from the game and are now watching from the bleachers. What’s the website address? Biological material is not the same as DNA. Nice try, though. Please give the resource.

  • Jfrn

    Well if you can’t spell the word “you”, you are lazy or uneducated. To me, it shows both.
    So you say you work with the mentally challenged. Let’s remember what physical therapy is.
    I too have experience in neuro, i.e. Aneurysms, hemorrhagic and ischemic strokes, you name it, I have experience in neurological disorders.

    However, you don’t have a clue as to what harassment is. Furthermore, I’ll take your threat as such, a threat. Define the word harass before making such threats. Consequences? Yes, I have copied your threat and have taken further action.
    I’ve called you out. Big difference than harassment.

  • Jfrn

    No. I’m not bipolar, however, by your reactions, I’m starting to believe you are.

  • Jfrn

    Crushing your opponent is only done by persuasion. Persuasion of the majority vote. You have not “crushed” anything, look around and count the numbers you have used your power of persuasion on. Zero.

    • Bcrew

      Nope. It’s by disproving your ludicrous argument and proving you’re wrong. Done. Not possible to persuade kool aid drinkers and not attempting to do so.

      Me
      So DNA can’t be obtained from sweat?

      You
      No
      Still no answers to basic yes or no questions.

      Game, set, match

      • Jfrn

        Again, ok.

        • Bcrew

          Thanks for admitting defeat

          • Jfrn

            Ok, as in it’s ok to believe your lies and it’s ok that I don’t care. You crack me up. It must be exhausting continuously trying to prove your argument, on several different threads, and not one person agrees with you. You use the same uneducated sentence format, and you continuously call others names because they know your beliefs are completely off base. So, ok. You believe what you want. That’s what the ok means. But I’m sure you will find a way to spin it to fit so it looks like you win. You’ve won against yourself, so congratulations, you believe your argument.

          • Bcrew

            Still no response to the questions. More denial and deflection. I won agains you, thanks for admitting it

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            Enough with the game set match. It’s been completely overused by you. It’s nauseating. Get some new material. You continue to spew lies, and I will ignore. You and I both know this is not what I said. You putting words in my mouth, and you changing your words to fit doesn’t change the facts. I’m done with your lazy, irrational, pompous, and uninformed garbage. I’m not going to continuously banter with you when you ignore facts. So you can continue your argument, which, is an argument with yourself. Maybe you repeating lies over and over will make you believe them or persuade you otherwise. It bothers me none what you will say from this point forward, as what you’ve said previously is absolute nonsensical garbage. It’s apparent, nobody can argue with ignorance, therefore, your ignorance will fall on deaf ears. If it floats your ego to think you win, then you can think you’ve won until eternity. I know, and others know, you are complete failure when it comes to comprehension, debate, and discerning between fact and fiction.

          • Bcrew

            So you still can’t answer the questions.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Rita

            Have u heard Edward Charles Edwards?? Now being investgated for Thresas murder??

          • Bcrew

            Bah You didn’t realize that it’s a joke. No one seriously thinks that, that old man did it. One conspiracy nut said that. You guys are so misinformed it’s hysterical.

          • Brandy Williams

            There are so many different people that it could have been but obviously this town doesn’t care if rapists and murderers run around. The people that let Allen go never even apologized to Allens victims, any idiot would have checked him out first but it is clear that no one in that town gave a crap about anything besides themselves. The boyfriend, the brother, roommate, another client that she had set up to photograph, the serial killer guy, the police. The reason so many people think Avery is innocent is because you would have to be pants on head retarded to believe they cleaned up so well but left a key and blood in the vehicle; no fingerprints in the vehicle? A cop would probably know how to wipe a car down that well but two derelicts?

          • Bcrew

            Obviously they do, it’s why Steven Avery is in prison. There is no one else that could have done this. All evidence leads directly to him. It doesn’t take a genius to see Avery had gloves on and got a cut through the glove. That’s why his blood and DNA are in the car and not his fingerprints. Your description fits someone who believes in his innocence perfectly. He is so obviously guilty it’s just laughable.

          • Brandy Williams

            I meant that the sheriff and prosecutor did not care whatsoever about the next victim that was beaten and raped by Gregory Allen; they had every opportunity to put this guy away but are so sick that they would rather settle a score with a slow guy. To bad one of them didn’t get raped and beaten by him.

          • Bcrew

            There’s nothing to support that. They believed Avery was guilty. They were wrong and maybe even deluded but nothing supports them purposefully wanting to convict the wrong man. They weren’t trying to settle a score, he was already going away for 6 years. They knew he was a dangerous felon and sexual predator and jumped to conclusions.

          • lexiloo

            They jumped to conclusions hmmm…

          • Bcrew

            Yes, in the rape case, not in the murder.

          • lexiloo

            Perhaps? But nobody on this site knows the truth really. Only the victim and Avery/Dassey. However you know his family members also had history of violence/sexual assault/rape. So…if this is some of the reasons behind why you think he did it why not accuse say his brothers? Both as backward as him. Why not say Steve helped move the car for his brother because his brother called him in a panic? Just as an example. Do you not think other people could have been involved? I dont get how he managed to kidnap her kill her and dispose of her without anyone else seeing or hearing. Brendans brother blaine was home? His girlfriend called him 3 times during the incident?lots of things getting in the way. I’m not saying you are wrong or right I’m just saying perhaps.

          • Bcrew

            Come on. You could say that in any case. The evidence clearly proves his guilt. There is zero evidence supporting that his brothers or anyone else did this. Everything points to him. Perhaps is just nonsense. It’s not evidence. You can’t explain all the evidence against him away. He clearly did this.

          • Bcrew

            Her remains 20 ft from his house and blood and DNA on her car. Not jumping to conclusions on this one. Sherlock Holmes isn’t necessary. He’s guilty as sin.

          • Galen Pack

            I hope I never have to interact with a person like you.

          • Bcrew

            Yes, someone with facts is scary to someone without them.

          • Brandy Williams

            If they are so guilty than why not give them a fair trial? The jury was made up of people from the county where he lives. I guess in the backwoods it is fine if the jurors are connected to the local sheriff (who is being sued by person on trial) and know of the case. In normal places when your get called in for jury duty you are asked if you know the individual and have heard of the case in general, if you answer yes than you are excused. I bet every red-neck on the jury knows of this case. This trial was a joke to normal people, it is obvious that bcrew is from this odd county; the way things were handled seems unreal to everyone in the country and other countries too. The only people that think it is proper procedure are these deranged individuals that live in this circus of a town. Sad. Embarrassing.

          • Bcrew

            They got a fair trial and they were convicted. The defense had every opportunnity to change the jury pool. Believing a biased tv show. Sad. Embarrassing.

          • Brandy Williams

            Your statement just proved how unfair the trial was, he didn’t even have a decent defense team. Have you noticed that you are the only person defending the corrupt county?

          • Bcrew

            LOL. You mean the high priced attorneys that are celebrated as some kind of heroes? I’m defending Teresa and reality and couldn’t care less if I’m the only one. Many believe he’s obviously guilty.

          • Brandy Williams

            Did you kill her??

          • Bcrew

            LOL the response of someone with zero argument. No, I’m not Steven Avery.

          • Sandra

            You’re so lame! you lose in this argument.. props to Jfrn for having so much patience with you.

          • Bcrew

            LOL yes she was so patient with her crazy rants and infantile namecalling. You can’t win when you get proven wrong repeatedly and have absolutely nothing to support you. Nice try though.

          • Blackbird_

            there you go again! 🙄

          • Bcrew

            Yep. Stating facts, sorry they don’t agree with you.

          • Bcrew

            Yes it must be nauseating to be proven wrong, caught lying, and unable to be able to answer simple yes or no questions.

            So you still can’t answer the questions.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            Ok whatever you want to believe.

          • Bcrew

            Nope that’s your entire pathetic argument. You’re the one who believes a propaganda tv show. It’s what I can prove.
            So you still can’t answer the questions.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

            You say you work in science and didn’t even know you could get DNA from sweat. Hahahahaha

          • Jfrn

            Can you read? Believe whatever your little heart and mind want to.

          • Bcrew

            No, that is your argument. I believe what is proven.

            You still can’t answer the questions.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            I have read our entire argument from the beginning. This is your response:
            “e
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?
            You
            No”

            This conversation did not even happen. I went back through just to see where you could’ve spun my words, and discovered you couldn’t even spin this conversation, because it did not happen. You are quoting something that doesn’t even exist. So, please provide this so called conversation in its ENTIRETY.

          • Bcrew

            Still denying and deflecting.
            I didn’t spin anything. Exactly what you said. You didn’t think you could get DNA from sweat.

            You still can’t answer the questions.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            Wow! Your lies caught up to you! BAH!

          • Bcrew

            You must have posted that to yourself. Bah!
            Btw – didn’t create any other profiles. You’re such a kool aid drinker you probably actually believe that. No wonder you blindly believe a tv show and crazy conspiracy theories.
            Still denying and deflecting.
            I didn’t spin anything. Exactly what you said. You didn’t think you could get DNA from sweat.

            You still can’t answer the questions.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            And you, sir, are a pathetic liar.
            To quote your favorite line:
            “GAME, SET, MATCH”

          • Bcrew

            Ha nice try to turn it around on me. Epic fail. Denial won’t make it go away.

            Still denying and deflecting.
            I didn’t spin anything. Exactly what you said. You didn’t think you could get DNA from sweat.

            You still can’t answer the questions.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            Nope. Isn’t it funny you can supposedly copy and paste this conversation that doesn’t exist a million times, yet I tell you to provide the comments directly before and after, which would require two more copy and paste actions, but you refuse to do that. Seems simple if you are so insistent on proving yourself. But you can’t do that because it didn’t happen. Nice try, liar!

          • Bcrew

            Nice try. Those were the direct words. Keep denying, You said it liar. You didn’t think you could get DNA from sweat and you know it.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            Just put the conversation up here. What’s the problem with doing that? There shouldn’t be a problem doing that if it exists. But you can’t do that because it doesn’t exist. Otherwise, you have no game set match. Provide that, should be easy to do, since you say you can quote this conversation, then you can most certainly provide the before and after. This is so laughable. You are just showing that you, in fact, do not have me quoted as saying such. Good try though.

          • Bcrew

            I just did.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            You just make me laugh. Let me put this in simpler terms so you might understand.

            Let’s act like you’re a witness on the stand and you are asked about a conversation you had. You give your version of one piece of the conversation you have.
            Now let’s say they ask you to repeat the comment directly before and after the one piece of conversation you provided.

            Your answer is the same piece of conversation that you already witnessed to.

            Now, what I am asking for, because I’m looking at the transcript and cannot find said conversation you have mentioned, is not what you have already stated, because, in fact, I cannot find such conversation, as it doesn’t exist, I’m asking you to provide further detail, as in the comment directly before and the comment directly after.

            And…GO

          • Bcrew

            Yes, because I blindly believe a biased tv show and keep denying and lying to try to save face, which just makes me look more foolish.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

          • Jfrn

            Yep I’m denying because because you cannot provide the conversation, in further detail, that I’ve asked for. That would claiming I said something but not providing other details when asked. Such as, the quotes that were directly before and after the so called quotes you’ve already given.

            It really is simple. It would be hard to do, however, if such conversation never happened. It’s that easy prove it with these further details.

          • Bcrew

            I have provided it over and over. You said it. You’re denying and lying. You continually maintained that you could not get sweat from DNA.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            You know exactly what I’m asking for. You can’t provide it. You keep repeating the same thing. I told you that’s not what I am asking for.

            You are a joke. A pathetic liar, and if you want anyone to believe you are as ingenious as you claim to be, I suggest you provide the comment before and after your so called quote. If you continue with this bs, this SLANDEROUS bs, I will take further action.

          • Bcrew

            You know exactly what you said. Stop denying it.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

            Stop deflecting and playing games. You know what you said and you know you thought you couldn’t get DNA from sweat.

          • Jfrn

            Thanks for continuing. You are now guilty of slander. You have falsified a conversation. This conversation did not happen. There is no record of it. I have copied each comment you and I have had, so if you want to continue to falsify a conversation that did not happen, you go right ahead.

          • Bcrew

            Ha. Nope. You don’t even know what slander is. You said it regardless.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            Oh I don’t, do I? Why don’t you look up the word slander. If I need to, I’ll provide the definition.

            Stop repeating the same quotes that I’ve told you doesn’t exist. If you say it exists, provide the comments directly before and after. It’s that easy. You can’t. It’s that apparent.

          • Bcrew

            I don’t need , I know what it means.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            You are a waste of human energy. Quote does not exist. You’ve been given numerous amount of time to prove. You can’t. Shut up until you provide further evidence of your claim.

          • Bcrew

            Yep sure does. Just keep denying and doubling down on your lies.

            Nice try I know who this is.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Bcrew

            That is the conversation in its entirety. That’s the question I asked and that was your response. Stop dodging, ducking, and lying.

            I didn’t spin anything. Exactly what you said. You didn’t think you could get DNA from sweat.

            You still can’t answer the questions.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            No it’s not. You are caught in a lie. There is no such conversation. And if that’s the case, which its not, how many days ago was it and provide the conversation directly before and after.

          • Bcrew

            Nope. You are. Yes, you said this. Denial won’t help you. You repeatedly claimed you couldn’t get DNA from sweat and I made sure to specifically get you on record on the exact question.

            Still denying and deflecting.
            I didn’t spin anything. Exactly what you said. You didn’t think you could get DNA from sweat.

            You still can’t answer the questions.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            You’re a liar. You can’t produce the conversation because the it didn’t happen. This is the best call out of proof of your lies. Hahaha! Busted.

            Your ship just sank. Don’t ever try and quote me again. You do realize that you can find yourself in legal trouble by doing so. I suggest you stop making up fictious conversations.

          • Bcrew

            It’s right in here for anyone to see. Your denial doesn’t take it away. Nor does your fake accusations and attempt to turn it around on me. You were the one busted. It’s okay though, you’ve been wrong so many times no one will notice.

            Still denying and deflecting.
            I didn’t spin anything. Exactly what you said. You didn’t think you could get DNA from sweat.

            You still can’t answer the questions.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            Yet you still cannot provide this made up conversation. I’ve even told you to quote the comment directly before and after this “so called” conversation. It’s that easy.

          • Bcrew

            Ha epic fail. Trying to turn it around on me. I have quoted it directly. Here it is again. Denial won’t make it go away.

            Still denying and deflecting.
            I didn’t spin anything. Exactly what you said. You didn’t think you could get DNA from sweat.

            You still can’t answer the questions.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No
            Direct quote. Stop denying. Yes, it was simple.
            Game, set, match

          • Bcrew

            Ok as in you got destroyed and gave up

            So you still can’t answer the questions.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

          • Jfrn

            Whatever you want to believe.

          • Bcrew

            Nope not what I want to believe. That’s your whole pathetic argument. What I can prove.

            So you still can’t answer the questions.

            Me
            So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

            You
            No

            Game, set, match

      • Jfrn

        Which you have failed to do. Continue to believe yourself. Your not arguing against what you believe. You are trying to prove your point which you have failed terribly to do.

        • Bcrew

          Nope.

          So you still can’t answer the questions.

          Me
          So you can’t obtain DNA from sweat?

          You
          No

          Game, set, match

  • Debra Summerer

    Why would someone who spent 18 years for a crime that was proven he did not commit? Then right after release kill someone and put the all the evidence on his own property.

  • John basketofpuppys

    i believe Brendan Dassey is innocent but i have doubts about Steven Avery i think Steven killed her

  • Josh Boles

    Whether Avery was guilty or not… Which I believe he was not.. All these threads and the millions of others prove there was reasonable doubt and that alone should have been enough to acquit him

  • Chesco

    1) It was Teresa Halbach’s ex.
    He used the media publicity of Steven’s first trial as an easy coverup.where Steven would be blamed for the new crime.
    2) An officer wanted Steven put away in prison so he wouldn’t be liable to be sued for everything he owned from Steven’s first wrongful sentence, so he used this murder as an opportunity to plant (or had planted by someone else) the clumsy evidence in order to frame him.

  • unknown

    Just out of curiosity— you think he is so guilty– why is it that a police department that was not supposed to have anything to do with the investigation were present without being supervised on the day the key was found? You see I have a problem with that because the FBI had been searching that room for 3 days and the key was not there. they turned the cabinet upside down and shook it and there was no key. Why is it that the key was only found when the police that were not supposed to be present were not only present but there by themselves. As for the vial of blood… even excluding the hole in the vial, the seal on the box had been broken. That shows as well that it had been tampered with. I dont believe that Steven Avery had enough brain power to actually clean up evidence so much that not a single trace of blood splatter could be found. I just dont feel that the prosecution proved their case and when you have 2 jurors talking about the aggression of 3 people on the jury, the only 3 that voted guilty on the very first vote. I suppose you dont believe that the police can get a jury to vote their way either. It is sloppiness like that , that put an innocent man in prison for 18 years for a crime he did not commit in the first place. Sloppiness that should have cost that police department dearly but did not because oh wait….the man is going back to prison on sloppiness again. Money is the root of all evil and I think money had a lot to do with this case.

  • JustTheFactsJackson

    People are so fast to believe fiction. They watch ONE one-sided “documentary” and they are experts in a case.
    This man is guilty. Even if you eliminate all the evidence you believe was “planted”, there is still enough to send him to prison WAY beyond a reasonable doubt.
    His wrongful conviction probably saved the lives of many other women.

  • Kathy Hendricks

    Steven Avery is guilty in every sense of the word. Unless I missed the show’s explanation, how did her SUV end up in the junkyard? Does Avery say that the police killed her and planted her SUV and burned bones on his property just to blame him? Avery is a psychopathic KILLER who just thought he could beat the system by blaming them because they got it wrong the first time! As far as the docudrama “sleuth” he’s obviously in it for the publicity because he forgot a lot of the state’s evidence!
    NETFLIX, shame on you for allowing a convicted killer so much publicity and showing an idiot’s “film” on how he’s assumed innocent! I’ll have to try AMAZON for movies!!
    As far as Avery’s lawyer, he’s just an idiot and must have been hard up for all that state’s settlement money he got to want to represent a definite KILLER!!!!
    Avery is behind bars where he needs to stay till time to see hell’s gates!!

  • Paul

    In my mind, things keep pointing to the police department in this case. There is a saying that has proven to be right almost 100% of the time…”If you want to know the truth, follow the money”…. So If you want to find the best motive, why don’t you begin by looking at those who might be held responsible for a $36 million dollar payout due to wrongful emprisonment. And like many have pointed out, these same police officers skipped many of the typical investigative protocols and standard procedures you assume take place. And by the way, how many of us out here understand that the bone fragments they found could not be what is left from a body burned in a bonfire? How about a murder scene with no evidence of where the murder took place? How about not being able to actually present a murder weapon in the courtroom? How about putting Brendon in prison with no evidence whatsoever except a coerced confession that was known to be so bogus it was not even used in Steven’s case? How about using AutoTrader literature as evidence of Teresa Halbach being in Steven’s trailer lol? It’s not a conspiracy…, this is the case of an Avery family that the surrounding community despises and was given the opportunity to side against. Steven’s most intelligent statement in the docuseries was when he said “he should have never moved back home” after getting out of prison and filing the civil suit. That town was never going to be able to stomach watching the Avery family spend millions of dollars and walk through the streets with county taxpayer money falling out of their pockets.

  • Rebekah

    I have read and read and read all the arguing and comments about Avery and who thinks he is innocent or guilty and the “sweat DNA” or the bullet or the stabbing and burning of the body, and I have to say I am saddened by the fact, so much effort has been put into this man, who did or didn’t do it, and no effort has been put into the family that last their daughter. Everyone wants to make a point and share their opinion of why they think he is guilty or innocent, and I have read this thread for a couple of hours now and not really a whole lot has been said about the family that actually lost someone. Everyone wants to focus on Avery. But here is what I say, I could honestly care less what others think about him. I don’t think he should be the focus of this case. What about the young woman who lost her life?? Who is fighting for her? Where is her voice? It has gotten muffled in the background while Avery is put at the forefront. Such a shame.

  • Richard Dennell

    In all that has been said, I have never heard what Stevens alibi was at the time of Teresa Halbach death. Where was Steven at the time of her death?

  • Galen Pack

    The huge problem with Bcrew is that he doesn’t see how biased HE IS. Just like overly zealous religious people and scientists that belive their theories can never be dispelled.

  • DJ N009

    Do you know if the Halbach family has seen the documentary?

    Were can you donate money for Bredan’s lawyers? There is a project for him, right?

    I recently read this book of wrongful convictions and really shady cases, it’s really frightning. In the Netherlands we had for example nurse ‘Lucia de bruin’ wrongfully convicted of murdering babies.

  • ElleEmm

    The false conviction of Steven Avery that involved the Manitowoc Police Department could have theoretically been overturned in 1995 instead of 2003, due to the confession by the actual offender (Gregory Allen) which was passed on to officer Colburn in 1995. Despite Colburn admitting in court that this was the only time he had ever been called and informed that they had the wrong man in jail, he dismissed the suggestion and never reported it until the day after Steven Avery had been released in September 2003.

    Both Colburn and Lenz were named in the $36 million wrongful conviction suit probe by Avery in 2005. Combined, these two men found the majority of all physical evidence in the case pointing to Steven Avery.

    Then Lieutenant Lenz was one of the first people on the Avery property on November 5th when Teresa Halbach’s car was found. Despite the on-site officer claiming in court that Lenz was not there before the login sheet was started, Lenz’s name can only be found signing out on November 5th. Lenz provided two contradictory statements about when he arrived at the Avery property on November 5th, once claiming 6-7pm and then changing his story to 14:05 (25 minutes prior to the beginning of the log which began at 14:30) once it was discovered he never signed in.

    Despite the direct conflict of interest for Colburn and Lenz due to the $36 million inquiry, they were allowed to voluntarily lead the search of the Avery residence. The first evening they were not under direct supervision by the Calumet Police Department, on the 7th search of the property, Teresa Halbach’s key was suddenly discovered by Lt. Lenz in plain sight.

    I don’t know if SA is a criminal. He’s possibly not a nice person. He might be. Who knows? Its all irrelevant. The only fact here is that there IS NOT enough evidence to connect SA to the murder. There is so much ‘evidence’ that is questionable and its appearance and collection has only caused permanent damage to the integrity of the MCSO,

    IF SA did this murder, there is no untainted evidence to connect him. If he did not do it, and I believe that is likely the case, then the REAL murderer is still at large.

    That makes me VERY sad and it should make Wisconsin residents very nervous.

    “Making a Murderer” at the very least, shows how it is possible for an innocent person to be framed and ‘proven’ guilty, not once, but twice.

    Be careful who you offend, because obviously revenge is definately best served cold.

  • mssteno

    It seems like the judges, the police, and everyone is crooked. How can they convict Brendan after they saw he was led by the police to say what he did? I also believe Brendan has a learning disability. But some of the things that the justice system is overlooking that has videos of what actually happened is ridiculous. I don’t know if Steven killed her or not, but the ex-boyfriend and Teresa’s male roommate, whose name I don’t know, should have been looked at either together or separately.

  • Dillusional

    Khend56…are you really suggesting that
    Avery killed her b/c her vehicle ended up in their junkyard? So apparently anyone who lives on that property is guilty? It’s shameful that officials behave the way they did in this case…

  • sonja

    Bcrew you sound like a complete idiot, a blind man can see he’s totally innocent.
    You say there’s DNA from sweat? There is no such thing they do not have a test for sweat. It can’t be done, please get your facts straight!

  • I strongly believe the cops framed him. It’s just so incredibly obvious to me, watching the series, & I kinda don’t get how anyone can think otherwise.

  • Midnight

    I’m thinking Brendan’s brother and Tdych could be responsible for this murder. The IQs and emotions of all associated with the junkyard are underdeveloped. I believe jealousy could be the motive and that the 2 (Tadych and Brendan’s brother) after murdering the victim “fed” Brendan the “story” to further solidify Avery’s guilt, thinking Brendan would somehow be “exonerated” either because of his age or mental capacity. Moreover, it was the perfect storm in the sense that the police saw an opening for retaliation against Avery and they ran with it by planting evidence. To me, the most disgusting part is the behavior of the detectives who questioned Avery. How can they live with themselves knowing they manipulated a 16 year old with a low IQ?

  • Andrew Joel

    After watching the show, motive has to be established also a time of death and a body. Time of death, with the burned up bones impossible to tell. Motive well if Brendan’s statements were not allowed in Steven’s case then there is no motive of evidence of a rape. Again no DNA of Teresa in the trailer of Steven. The body from the bedroom to the garage to the car. Why???? Does not make sense with no blood or DNA trail. Also a gun shot wound would have caused blood splatter or the knife cut. If in the garage no other DNA was found. The DNA on the bullet, well they had one chance to get it right and it was contaminated, should have never been used as scientific evidence. The key chain is another thing that does not make sense. That it was not found the first or second search. Reasonable doubt!!! Just from what is mentioned there is reasonable doubt. The Jury should be been instructed on “beyond a reasonable doubt.” Weather Steven committed any crime or not, the case presented by the prosecution did not warranted a guilty verdict. It should have been a hung jury or a mistrial. The lawyers for Steven agreed to the movie but why not take the case pro bono that is another angle that should be considered. If they are so sure Steven is innocent they should see it all the way through. If they could get it overturned then they could name their price. They did not come to his aid in any other attempt to get Steven a new trail or an appeal. The Judge said some very harass statements in the sentencing of Steven which makes you wonder what the movie did not reveal about the case. Would love to see justice done for Teresa’s family in what really happen. To many holes in this case to allow for the conclusion that it was Steven.

  • D.H.

    Maybe the lady from the show Dead Files could figure it out. I’m being serious.

  • Deb Vanderbeck

    I think Steven Avery and Brendan are innocent . After watching making a murderer I truly believe that in their lifetime that something will prove it. I normally have No tolerance for such cruel behavior. However, I think that the power of money is Evil. How about the DA with those other women? What about that defense attorney , a bit shady. Sure these people are not good looking or educated.How dare society And judge treat them like low life’s . Please note that I feel very sad for Theresa’s family, I’m full of compassion for them. For the remainder of my life I plan to follow this story. Let the truth be known.

  • Bridget

    It would be great if other investigators who love the truth would look back on this case and investigate all of the suspects listed above because that is where the truth would be found!

  • David

    Hi Chad as you are an officer of the law I would like to ask you. If the blood in that vile was only used for testing his Dna to turnover his previous conviction? then why was there only 5.5ml of blood left In it? Dna testing would surely at the most only required 0.5ml. And seems as tho the paperwork stating how much was in there in the first place seems to have disappeared. I have to assume there Would have been 10ml as I can expect avery would of been willing to empty his vains for the purpose that vile was taken for. And based on my theory that would explain beyond reasonable doubt the source of all the evidence against him. I don’t feel it necessary to ask the question where his sweat came from as it’s quite obvious it could of been transferred off many of his personal belongings. They seem like the type of people who don’t lock there doors. Plus if he did do it then why would he go to all the effort of burning her body but not crushing and burning her car. Surely the fear of doing something that would land him back in prison would of kept him awake for 48 hours while he made sure he tied up all loose ends. I’m not even going to question the key as that baffles me how that was allowed in the court. I’m pretty sure anyone who is expecting to receive a huge amount of money. Would not do anything to risk not enjoying it. spending 18 years of your life paying for someone else’s crime is surely a huge deterrent for not doing crime of any sort when you are released. I will leave you with this.

    Steven avery is guilty. It’s a shame the judge and prosecution believed differently right from the beginning. And it’s s even bigger shame they were allowed to air speculation on the news and tell it as facts purposely to win over its viewers and repeatedly allow officers to say what they wanted on tv with no questioning but swamp the defence every time they tried to do the same. This case had captured the attention of the American population so much that all law enforcement agencies and the justice system needs averys retrial this year or next to still find him guilty or face utter dis belief and severe doubt from the normal people who are expected to trust in them.

    I am from the uk and can guarantee if this case was bought before our courts things would of been different and the judge would of deemed based on the evidence a verdict of too risky to find avery guilty. Lenk would of probably been thrown in prison. The 2 investigating officers would be working in macdonalds and Brendon would never of seen the inside of a court room.

  • jon

    The county police had a conflict of interest with the defendant, That’s why they said they will not get involved in the investigation, but they got fully involved, all the evidences were found by Manitowoc county police. Therefore all these evidences should’nt have been admited in court. The judge not only admited this tanted evidences but also appointed a lawyer to brendan dassey that was working for the prosecutor, trying to get a confession that can be used against Avery.
    It should’ve been re-trial

    • Lamaya

      Indeed, someone took a big bite out of the fruit of the poisonous tree

  • Ryan

    Steven Avery had a car crusher on his property! Why wouldn’t her crush the car? Also her had a smelter on his property! He could easily have made the body burnt to nothing, and the car crushed and melted for that matter. The. Guy burns a body out in a open yard? I’m not buying it. They wanted that car found, those cops were personally liable for Avery’s wrongful conviction, they stood to loose everything including the police chief! They were all involved with the conspiracy! Who would commit murder when they just did 18 years! My friend that did time wouldn’t even go to have a drink at the bar for fear they’d get sent back!
    Also If the bullet is in the shop she would have been killed there weres the blood?

    Shocking to watch these very low iq people get railroaded.

  • Susan Hagen

    I think the ex boyfriend did it and the cops inadvertently covered up for him, with out ever knowing who they were covering up for. After they were in it too deep, the were glad just to get rid of Steven Avery and didn’t want to even chance another release or more wrongful conviction law suits.

    It is really something to note that the boyfriend and brother of Theresa deleted messages from her phone during the crucial time while she was missing. SOMETHING is up with that.

    The entire Avery clan are back woods people, and sounds like some prior arrests and illegal situations going on, but to think that Steven would even consider rape and murder after getting out of prison for a wrongful conviction just makes no sense at all. (Remember, he didn’t do it!) Also, the Special Needs nephew should have never been harassed and all those people involved with that should be hung up by their heels. I think he gets convicted, too (Haven’t seen whole documentary), and that even makes me more sick.

    • Lamaya

      Right and it seems like the only people investigated for this crime were only Avery family members.

      Brendan was Stevens only alibi and they turned him against his uncle. They were telling him how his uncle was saying that Brendan did all of this. Brendan couldn’t comprehend what was happening.

  • rbh1623

    If Avery’s house was so clean, why did it take the police a week to find that key? The key that only had Stevens dna?

    • Lamaya

      Oh, you know, they were just waiting for Brendan to tell them that info about the key.

  • james barklow

    It was Zipperer or The Kraut

  • Brian Hunton

    M NIGHT SHYAMALAN couldn’t have dreamt this case up!!!!
    Wow. Im blown away! The entire…FLOW and evolution of this case is backwards. Typically, the EVIDENCE in a case is what serves to drive and bring light, structure, and sense to a case. As an investigation evolves the evidence is the brush that paints the picture so to speak. EVIDENCE , STORY (happening), SUSPECT, TRIAL….so forth and so on. This case is completely backwards and so far, noone has yet to recognize this. HERE we have…SUSPECT, STORY, then (ever so conveniently)EVIDENCE. Even months after the alleged murder evidence is somehow FOUND. I can go on but I’ll close in saying that this entire case and his conviction should be pardoned. It was grossly botched and should be easily appealed on those grounds alone yet that would mean a judge would have to admit that once again the SYSTEM has failed this family.

  • Brian Hunton

    Other than by the spoon fed confession concocted by the investigators in this case they have no proof that there was even a murder committed there is however a body of a dead woman that was used in this case but no one is for certain that she was even murdered at all. The only way Avery’s family and Ms. Halbach’s family will ever get justice is if SOMEONE cracks and confesses to playing a part in this setup. I vote JOE KENDA should be invited to investigate the death of Ms. Halbach.

    • Jim

      Polygraph Scott Tadych (Avery’s brother-in-law) and Bobby Dassey (Avery’s nephew and Brendan Dassey’s brother) and they will crack!!

  • B.A.

    I’m curious as to why people refuse to even discuss the idea that the cops may have killed her…

    • Jim

      cops did not kill her, because if they had, then Lenke would not have called in finding her car 2 days before the searchers found it, he would have known it was her car, he came across the car, called it in and was told it was her car, so then they took what they could not pass up as the opportunity to frame Steve Avery for the murder, save themselves 36m Dollars, and get the guy who was out to get them, so they primed the car with Avery’s blood and waited for it to be found by the person they told where it was.

      • Jim

        The only actual possible answer to who dunnit is that Scott Tadych (Avery’s brother-in-law) and Bobby Dassey (Avery’s nephew and Brendan Dassey’s brother) did it, not physically possible for anyone else to have done it, Also they alibi’d each other, and got the details wrong to fit in with their lie about being hunting in the woods. They tried to sell the murder weapon.

  • cyninoregon

    There are more reasons to believe Hillegas the ex and or Mike Halbach killed Teresa. Steven Avery and his lawsuit were ubiquitous on local news and radio in the days before the murder. The upper limits of liability were obsessed upon and it was made clear how much those subpoenaed for a deposition hated Avery (and how the county would be bankrupted, ins. would not cover intentional acts and there is no bankruptcy to escape punitive damages.) If they wanted to kill her (and someone close to her was stalking her–she receivred constant calls from someone who deleted them…) It looked as tho the police would once again blame Avery if Teresa met foul play–as happened. Hillegas hacked her phone messages acct and others, friends lists etc–knew she was meeting with Avery–also if jealous, she was meeting with a guy soon to be worth $36 million… He could have killed her on the 31st and had until the 4th before he had to plant the truck at the Avery lot (the Averys were forced off the property by police for 8 days while they searched). He had those days to burn the body because it’s next to impossible she was cremated in the open air at the bonfire. Experts say perhaps at the quarry where more bones were found or elsewhere, Avery had nothing to get it hot enough. Finally experts say the bones had been moved–why would any Avery spread them around to so many properties at the Avery lot? BECFAUSE THE MURDERER WAS NOT AN AVERY AND HAD YO SPREAD THEM AMONG EVERY FIRE PIT ON THE PROPERTY–he had no clue whoch home was Avery’s, esp sneaking around in the dark! They also wanted to be suree she was c found on the salvage yard. But any Avery would either dispose of them or plant them in Steven’s bonfire. Steven no longer thinks any family members did any of it. Also Ryan or Mike gave police that valet key from her home to plant at the Avery trailer after scrubbing it and placing Steven’s DNA on it. They could get it from the home she shared. And police would not see it as incriminating because it was not the key she regulaly used. It had to be planted per all the police testimony and the photos. 8 days later or something crazy, only after one of the deposed bad cops gets inside without a minder.

  • Ellie

    Dna test with sweat. A condition referred to medically as perspiration sweat is a cooling mechanism for the body and help maintain constant internal body conditions. However, it is essentially water and dissolved salts and in itself does NOT contain any cells or DNA. Google fact. Sweat doesn’t carry dna sorry to burst your bubble x

  • Jim

    It is clear as the nose on anyone’s face, theory 1 scott Tadych and bobby Dassey is not a theory, it is facts, the police could not have done the murder, but definitely manipulated the evidence, the proof of this is the radio call in of Teresa’s car by the police 2 days before the car was found, along with the theft of blood from the evidence. 6 policemen and 2 different menbers of the Avery clan should be in jail. The FBI expert should never be allowed to offer evidence in a criminal case ever again, he clearly lied and should probably be in jail also, Brendan’s first lawyer and investigator should be in jail also. Probably the 2 lead investigators should be prevented from investigating any crime’s again, the judge for Steve Avery also appeared to be biased and convinced of guilt from the start, Wisconsin appeal and supreme courts have clearly blinded backed their police force regardless of the obvious lying and evidence tampering by the police.

    It is a shocking case, and shows there is no such thing as justice in the US, people can only hope that somewhere in the US justice system someone looks and sees what is clearly obvious, and the wrongs are corrected. Imagine you had a wife and 2 kids, and lost them because you were unjustly locked up for 18 years!! then imagine you are locked up for the rest of your life for a crime you did not commit, and the police know they created the evidence, and you own brother in law and nephew carried out the crime and put you in jail for their lives.

  • Ericka Bush

    I think there are a lot of things wrong with how this case was handled. Once the Manitowoc police remained involved it should’ve been thrown out. How can the very police department that was embarrassed and sued be involved in the investigation. Everything that was found in their presence or after they left the property should have been thrown out.

  • Sabrina Marie

    I think personally there should be one more theory of a suspect. I feel theresas brother may of done it. In some of her video diaries she mentions her love for her sisters, but doesn’t name her brother. Also her brother was the first to report her missing based on his statements about her not answering the phone. Also, he too admitted he “guessed” his sisters passwordand could also of deleted messages. There was also the witness who said theresas expressed annoyance over repeatative calls where she recognized the number and ignored it. If theresas felt threatend by anyone who lived or actively worked on the Avery property, why would she be comfortable even going there to take photos? So, who was harassing her? Why was her brother also so sure and even demanding that Avery was guilty? I understand the want to blame, but in such matters of murder, wouldn’t you think through more than just one possible suspect? Wouldn’t you wonder about the intentions of the police who at the same time were being questioned about the initial false lmprisonment of Avery and who suddenly were going to lose not only their integrity but also money from their own accounts? And why on earth would you want to assume that such a horrible crime was the actual truth? If it was my sister, I would certainly pray for her to be found and hope that perhaps she died quickly with less pain instead. So I don’t understand her brothers behavior at all. He also often interuots theresas ex boyfriend and others to the media as if his trying desperately to control what is said, as if he is afraid. Why would he be afraid of what theresas other acquaintances said about her? There is not enough info in the TV series and court case coverage for me to base a full opinion of his regular reactions through out and in life. But why was he also always so confident that the police dept and the jurors would put both Avery and Brandon away? Did he even know Brandon? Why make such another strong judgment as if any relative to Steve was evil? This is just a thought of mere speculation, but I think that either theresas brother alone, or possibly he and her ex killed her either by accident or purposefully, and for some reason the police wanted to protect him so they continuously reassured him that they had this covered, that all fingers pointing to him would be removed, and that he would just simply have to keep the media notified, the family and friends mourning instead of. Thinking of other suspects, and just dodge being accused in every way possible. Also if Avery family was so violent and such why isn’t that stated in the TV series? And why were Steven, Brandon, and anyone who believed their innocence constantly getting their own words twisted by the media and officers and this brother? For instance Steven specifically explains past allegations of burglary and killing a cat, and also how he reacted to rumors about him, why would he do that if he were just trying to get out of all this. I think that the very second Steven was winning to some extent his life back by possible compensation, and possible removal of the ” bad eggs” in the county offices, many panicked. Because if you really think about it, we could go back and find many other cases where wrongful convictions were made due to DNA and other evidence. But there is already enough to try to control in the present through the courts and police, if all of these past cases such as Avery were reopened, it could take a very long time and a lot of compensation, they can’t only give Steven all the attention, they would have to look at families who lost loved ones while they died in prison who were possibly innocent, etc. This whole case has been drama from day one. Theway things were conducted is so crazy that its like its just a story and not possible. The sad truth is, its not just a story, and the repercussions that have already risen, as well as what could of or could still be acted upon are so mind blowing that its almost incomprehensible. I feel such a strong pull because I came from a small town where judgments on my family and rumors were made. I also had some dealings with Columbia county which is very close to this entire incident and have even seen some unfair dealings in wi courts up in that area of the state. I am glad I have moved farther away now because the thought of all this evil happening is quite scary. When I wrote quite the book here haha

  • Stacy Isaac

    Idk, maybe I’m really reaching here BUT am I the only one that think that this could possibly be a Psy-Op? (Psychological Operation)…. To promote a specific agenda towards and mostly directed at incompetent, dirty police officers, crooked district attorneys and the power of money and socioeconomic status in this country. Also, showing how judgemental ppl r depending upon where u live & how one looks.
    No doubt something is up cuz Avery throwing a cat in fire for fun is deff psychopath/sociopath characteristics…. BUT, there’s something deeper than we will ever know.
    I also found it strange that Teresa’s brother was mourning and grieving her death BUT it was never even determined whether she was still alive or not at that time! His affect was flat. And he gleamed in the limelight every chance he could.
    How do we even know who this woman is? & that she’s really who they say she is, and if she’s even truly dead or not?….

    • TheTruthIsHere

      Yes, you are the only one.

    • hillian P

      I think her brother could definitely know something more because of reasons you’ve stated.

  • benjaminIani

    There is a theory, or a variation of theory 1, that would explain much of what is so bewildering about this case. The most bewildering thing in the case is Brendan’s statement, which he later recanted, about being involved in the murder of Teresa and disposal of her body. It could be that the story he told is true but the identity of the person(s) he was with was not Steven Avery. If Brendan were with people who were close to him, someone with a much stronger personality, someone who was there when Teresa was, who was ruthless enough to kill Teresa, who was capable of instilling in Brendan fear for his life (after all he’d just seen Teresa killed by this person), someone who told him the same story that brother Bobby told the court about having seen Teresa with Steven, then Brendan could have done everything that he claimed to have done but not with Steven but in the company of other people, yet been incapable of speaking the truth for fear of extreme repercussions. In this variation, his whereabouts would be as he claimed in his recantation – at home – and his actions of involvement in rape and murder as he confessed to in his statement. The difference being, of course, that he was with someone other than Steven Avery. The only other person to point the finger directly at Steven Avery as an eye-witness was Brendan’s brother, Bobby, and if Bobby did not go hunting as he claimed, then Brendan would have been at home too. The police did not search the Dassey home; the Dasseys had access to all the sites that Avery had; and the animosity shown to Avery by Bobby was extreme – it came out of the blue and seemed to be a direct attempt to have Steven convicted. It also seemed that Bobby was exceptionally good at verbal intimidation (he did this in court) and that Brendan would be no match for him. Brendan’s semi-catatonic state could be explained by his guilt for having done what he stated that he had done but in the company of someone whom he feared more than Uncle Steven. That the Defense did not unpick Bobby’s testimony and scrutinise the mutual alibi he and his step-father Tadych purported to have, was one of the few apparent shortcomings in the Defense by his otherwise exemplary attorneys. The testimony remained oddly untouched by both sides at the close of proceedings.

  • xizzi

    I think everyone is afraid to say what they really think – that is – if they believe Avery was framed. Truth is noone will ever know what happened.

  • The Plough & Stars

    Excellent analysis of a clear miscarriage of justice!
    Great work comrade!

  • Itoohaveastory

    After seeing the 48hours,reading on the case,watching other docs that may pose junk evidence that didn’t need to be in the MAM series which I also watched repeatedly in its entirety. Theory #4 is close to what I’ve felt was likely. We all know the killer loves to show up and be apart of vigils and volunteering in searches just to see what they’ve caused,the spectacle they’re responsible for.
    I Also feel very strong about the two crooked officers (Lenk&Coborn) after either finding the RAV4 on the Avery lot which was put/hidden there by the real killer or killers who also burned the victim at the far end of the Avery property where the few remains were found. Or that the RAV4 and victim were found elsewhere by officer Coborn who contacted dispatch confirming the plates ,make,year and model of the 99Rav4 and planted it at the Averys,finding the victim in the RAV4,planting the bones after doing or having someone destroy the evidence(fire). One things for sure,the Manitowoc police are responsible for setting everything up after,the DNA,key,blood in RAV,bullet etc…to get back at and have Avery put away once n for all.

  • Randy Clark

    If Brendan’s confession is true, then we must say that there should be massive amounts of blood and DNA in the bedroom, since they stabbed her repeatedly and slit her throat, supposedly, while she was tied, spread eagle, on the bed. No such DNA was ever discovered. Not one hair – let alone any of her blood “or” evidence of blood removed. Add to that the DA’s own testimony that “One man and one man only is responsible for the murder of Teresa Halbach – Steven Avery” at Steven Avery’s trial. Yet that very DA prosecutes Brendan? The interviews and manipulation and obvious lack of understanding by Brendan are all cringe worthy. Not to mention his own Attorney’s “Investigator” who explicitly directed Brendan to draw “a picture of her tied to a bed here” and “you stabbing her here” AFTER Brendan merely wrote that he came home from school, played video games, answered the phone, helped Steven clear junk from the yard, then went back home to watch TV, talked to his mom, and went to bed. Based on all of that, I’d have to conclude, since there is no actual, physical evidence linking Brendan to the crime, that not only is he not guilty, but his testimony about Steven should be excluded. Now, as far as Steven goes, let’s say he killed her. Where? Where is the crime scene? Check. There isn’t one. All they really have is the burned remains they found in his back yard days after the family was restrained from property. Where is the chain of custody and discovery? There is none. The key? Let’s talk about that. So the story is that Steven killed her off property somewhere yet to be discovered, brought her body back to the property to burn it in his back yard, but didn’t throw the key in the fire after he wiped it down? He didn’t try to bury it? He didn’t crush the car in his car crusher? He didn’t try to burn the car the crush it? With those five days to cover evidence, as the inspector smirked, he didn’t do any of that while he was burning her corpse that he dragged back to his property? It’s absurd. Body language is more revealing than words. I still remember when Susan Smith was on the news saying her kids had been taken in her car by a black man and I was watching it with a co-worker at the Hospital on the psychiatric unit and I said “She killed them”. It was her body language and “how” she spoke, not “what” she said. Why do I bring this up? Because of Teresa’s brother and ex boyfriend. Their voice patterns and body language on first interview reveal to me that they are guilty. Not to mention that family members and partners should be the first suspects, and that they tampered with evidence – and were not only never questioned or pressured for an alibi, but were never charged with obstruction.

  • I think the police dept killed Teresa, and made it look like Steven Avery did it.

    • hillian P

      I wouldn’t put it past them! That 36 million dollar lawsuit was already filed and getting ready to kick off. At the very least, Steven was probably going to wind up with around 18 million because the police got that call from some other detective in a different county saying they had someone there confessing to the rape that Steven was sitting in jail for, and those butt heads didn’t bother to even look in to it. Makes no sense that he would kill that woman knowing he’s getting ready to get at least a good chunk of cash! No way!
      Let me tell you, the little town that I come from had a huge scandal not too long ago.
      A judge had a cop buddy plant meth in the wheel well of a woman’s car because she wouldn’t sleep with him! That judge and 2 law enforcement officers, and 1 other person are going to prison, if they haven’t already been sent. I know for a fact the judge is, and he was guilty as charged. Look up Judge Bryant Cochran, Murray County, GA and Angela Garmley. It’s absolutely disgusting what he tried to get away with.
      So I too, wouldn’t put this frame job against Avery past those cops!

  • Melissa Flenner

    I can’t believe it has went this far … I hope all the police the DA all the people that set these two innocent people up it’s disgusting that they have got away with it … but guess what ..it will get them and I hope they die a horrible horrible death .. they killed that girl no doubt and they are out living their lives … and these 2 are in prison ??? I wanted to jump through my tv an choke the da .. lenk colburn .. they had lies all over their faces …. they deserve the death peanilty all off them !!!!!! Sorry Steve I’m so sorry for you and brendon so very sad you were cheated in life by evil people !

    • hillian P

      A serious scandal happened in the small town that I’m from, so I don’t put it past the local law enforcement to do a cover up, or frame job on someone. And by no means do I not support our men and women in blue, there are good and bad in everything. But if you to read about a local judge that planted meth in the wheel well of a woman’s car because she wouldn’t sleep with him, Google Judge Bryant Cochran, Murray County, GA and Angela Garmley. You’ll be absolutely horrified to learn that two officers participated in this setup!

  • KingChris

    A man falsely accused of rape who spent 18 years in prison fighting the injustice is simply not going to rape and murder. None of it adds up. I believe a a family member of Steven Avery committed this crime and had access to the burn pit.
    One bullet with Theresa dna, and no futher blood evidence or blood splatter. No rope fibers found on the bed. And a Key with his DNA and not hers found mysteriously after 3 days of searching his property.
    Police thought he did the crime and planted evidence. Moral corruption at it’s finest

  • Pingback: ISGJ Today : “Making a Murderer” Makes Me Mad()

  • Trader

    The entire evidence gathering process was compromised. The same people who were part of a lawsuit because they had previous bias – family ties, personal reasons – and because of this bias incarcerated him the first time were in control of the crime scene the second time.

    How any of that evidence is admissible is beyond belief. Furthermore, the compromised evidence doesn’t even fit the prosecution’s own theory. They say he slashed her throat in the bedroom but there is no blood. Somehow that doesn’t kill her so he gets the rifle and shoots her 11 times?

    What a load of doodoo.

  • Polly Hannah

    How about she’s not really dead. There IS no body and highly insufficient evidence to suggest a rape OR a death. Maybe this corrupt county paid her off to save their own a$$. Anybody checked the Bahamas for Miss No-Body-Supposedly-Dead Hallbach?

  • pete

    DUMMIES….NONE of these “Theories” happened…JUNK Journalism!!!!!

  • xizzi

    OMG I can’ believe these comments, all youre doin is fightin with one another, calling each other names and not having an intelligent discussion. Way to go people!